I'm too ashamed to bring into the discussion the UK's NHS, it's that fucked up.

the problem is simple. A large portion of americans do not want to share their tax burden with those folks who have no help, the other half have been brainwashed to believe that good reform will drive up their health care costs, when in actuality it is the opposite. What I have learned from the social climate during this debate is that many americans are selfish, self-centered, and self-righteous, and until those issues are addressed NOTHING will happen as usual.

Too true.

And a large percentage of those people are the effing 'christian' right who seem to believe one thing on sunday and conveniently forget it the rest of the week.

you mean all that is not provided by walmart?

they say they have nothing to do with their tax money being used to kill innocent people in pointless wars, but when it comes to using that money to save the life of an immigrant OH NO, not with MY taxes!

this has been a problem in america since its very conception. The worst slave master in the day was the church going variety, who piously abused their slaves in the name of God while the most religious folks pushed the genocidal manifest destiny from sea to blood-stained sea :(

again, I think that in the US we would have to start out with "care" (that means spending tax money to help your fellow man, not get a tax break to buy a new flatscreen TV for your SUV) and then "health" (that means that McDonalds can no longer be the official food of the Olympics ;) ) in order to even remotely begin to have health care, let alone to have health care reform.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to knox again.


don't hate, Walmart filled $200 worth of prescription for $14 last friday, saved my bronchitis from evolving in pneumonia :)

Mmm, yes. But I do not agree with telling people what to eat and what to do, as a fascist attempt to establish "health".

Practice sports, eat well so your death can come at minimum cost for the state?

true.. but telling people to eat whatever the fuck they feel like whenever they want too and letting scandalous companies brainwash our children with mass media advertising to grow up as steady consumers addicted to imitation food products has not been working so well and so is not a viable alternative my dear ;)

well, you could also educate people so they could make decisions for themselves, a wild idea.

I'm probably ignorant to the complexity of the issue at hand (hell, I hardly even know what the new bill is). But, I've always felt that the best way to resolve this would be to turn over the entire health industry to the free market.

Honest competition = lower prices, and higher standards.

I heard something on the radio today about Michigan wanting to be exempt from the new bill.

...and to think people 'round these parts used to LOVE Obama :rolleyes:.

the healthcare industry is held in chains by INSURANCE COMPANIES who are the ones that actually determine who gets what treatment, what treatments are covered, and all that shit.

I would much rather have that aspect in public servants hands tha in the hands of the greedhead cocsuck assholes that run insurance companies.

free market is BULLSHIT.
all markets must be regulated to some extebnt to prevent outright fraud, malicious hurts, and just plain shoddy merchandise.

"Free trade" only goes in one drection. it is bullshit.

yes, the idea that free market is going to give you best service and lower prices is just. I mean, they have been doing that for a while, and that's how they collectively decided to overcharge everyone and then deny as much care as they can in order to maximize profits. I don't care if they do that in the hair pin industry, but you know.

Health care is just too serious to have the interest of profit as its drive. Nobody would consider giving away the police to corporate control, because it seems pretty obvious that is a shit idea. I don't see why health should be different.

If you can afford your private plan, good for you. Hopefully you will not lose your assets if you get cancer, fingers crossed (as if cancer wasn't bad enough).

I do know that a lot of the problem is that the American political system is so screwed up that a hugely popular aspect (the public option) was jetissoned because it was considered politically impossible, despite being so popular with the public.

And this:

I am not saying I am against private insurance, I am just saying there must be a public service WORKING alternative for when:
a- you cannot afford it
b- privates turn you down

because, truth is, private insurance is for healthy people who like to see a fancy doctor once in a while.
if you are or could be sick, if you have pre-existing conditions or if you're too old, chances are you won't be able to afford it or they won't cover you anyway.

I'm tired of the whole 'educate people' argument. Just ban all the stupid things that only stupid people buy. they're too stupid to actively oppose it anyway.

but if stupid people did not buy stupid things no one would have a job.

again, 40% rate increase and now a $2500 fine if you don't pay Big Insurance money. Big Insurance now "has" to accept pre-existing conditions at a price they choose "high risk pool" etc.

lose your job>high blood pressure>can't afford a premium>lose insurance>fined by IRS>shit repo'd

this is Amerikkka, what did you expect?

thats demented shit---it ain't happening

you've been lissenin to glenn beck too much

high risk pools will be federally subsidized until the exchanges kick in in 2014. then nobody will be segregated. right now high risk gets only a coffin.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/hi...health-reform/

low income people will get help to pay if they can't afford it.

crypto's dad & co. will pay for this through taxes

small businesses will get tax credits to pay for employees

there willl be other public programs to help those who can't pay.

actually, it's NOW that people go regularly bankrupt over medical bills.

but flotzo, you ain't rich, so don't worry. you have corporate insurance, you're not affected.

the mandate is $750 for those who refuse to get insurance of any kind, but taxpayers always end up paying for those-- small potatoes compared to the cost of cranial reconstruction.

here's how it will look like in the future:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr..._by_the_h.html


anyway, welcome to civilization, you dustbowl denizen.

ps- 40% increases: bullshit:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr..._raise_ra.html

learn from the smart jew and shush with the disinformation campaign.

unless it's jokes-- but this time i didn't get them.

ugh.

So (and excuse me for sounding like an idiot here) what about those who aren't working or are on really low income? How will this affect them?

edit. ok, thanks

they'll get subsidized to buy insurance which they can't do now.

right now there are programs for the indigent in most places but they are limited. i.e. this friend of a friend (poet) goes to this sliding scale hospital in new york. but it's on an emergncy basis. not sure how they would deal with, say, chemo.

i can't get insurance self-employed so i have a deal with the local hospital, and i go to a clinic that is grant-funded-- if i crack my head outside the city or state i'd be in real deep shit (and debt). but w/ the reform i can get my business to join large buyer pools which will give me the bargaining power i currently lack.

having been without health insurance for over 6 months makes me pretty much ineligible anywhere in my state. the cunts.

sorry, ive edited & reedited so its not yr fault (i think). but im done, gotta go have dinner etc.

how dare you accuse me of listening to Glenn Beck.

I have no political bias, simply a deep understanding of how healthcare in this country "works".

it doesn't work. it's broken as fuck, corrupted by large money-siphoning hospitals and this will make it worse.

money to help the poor? from state Medicaid? in four years? lol?

I'm sorry, I'm not a republican, I'm a realist.

ps: WTS bridges

public option or gtfo

political cache

The new healthcare is a tentative step towards universal healthcare because it's mandatory to get it, but that seems to be its only saving grace.

I know it doesn't affect me directly (THANK FUCKING FUCK!) but it does seem that it is a case of 'better than nothing'.

I think it's also a case of hurrah from those who will benefit which includes !£$etc obviously and the insurance companies.

Now you all need to pray (yeh I know) over there that we don't get David Thatcher for PM over here or else they'll fuck with our health system a bit more. Maybe finish off the job Margaret Cameron started (see wot I did there?).

Exactly, its not a panacea and its not the end of the world. I hope we actually get a chance to see what it can do before the repub's try to dismantle it.

"Nothing" is preferable to the UK's NHS at present. You've got more chance of remaining alive! You go into one of it's filthy hospitals for a simple op and come out in a body bag after picking up the superbug MRSA!

shut up you spoilt little girl.

Yeah, I can't get enough of MRSA. :rolleyes:

you sound like him! (at times)


so how would you fix it, considering the senators your state sent to washington?

http://inhofe.senate.gov/public/

http://coburn.senate.gov/public/


this bill will add customers for the insurance, yes, but it will also pound them into some kind of submission, add controls, tie premiums to expenses, etc.


"LOL"? what's happened to you. you used to be articulate.


sometimes cynicism wants to pass for realism, but it isn't


where? how much?


i'm for the public option too and i hope some day it will be added but with the public option the bill was going to bomb. no chance. period.

so, we got what we could. better than nothing. consider the yahoos! goddammit.

obama is a musk cunt / i just joined a dave matthews forum

the insurance companies will NOT benefit, which is why republicans, bankrolled by insurance companies, have been fightiong this.

insurance companies will LOSE money (as they see it, actually just a smaller profit) because they will have to continue paying out to people with long debilitating sicknesses, as well as they will have to cover and pay out for people who are older, already sick, or in "unhealthy" brackets.

fuck insurance companies.

they are a con game, a racket, a grift.
they take money from the people they choose (chosen becaus ethey are unlikely to ever need expensive medical care)
they set limits on how much they are gonna pay uyou, even if your cancer bills run far higher than the arbitrary $100,000 cap
They choose not to insure those who need it most, older people, poor people, and already sick people.
insurance companioes ideal customer is a 24 year old white male who will never get pregnant, not get cancer until they are older and hav epaid tens of thousands into the insurance racket already, etc.

fuck the insurance companies.

they decide, THEY (a fucking accountant, a fucking actuary, someone who is NOT a health professional nor trained in medicine, nor knows the actual client/patient involved or his/her health issues apart from what is written in the "record") decide what treatment is possible, what pills they will pay for, what doctor can perform what surgery. it is fucking BULLSHIT.

FUCK the insurance companies.

So how do you really feel about insurance companies, rob?

I'd say no one is forcing you to get insurance, but I'd be wrong!

I don't like the way it is forced on people. When I'm unemployed, i don't have money to pay for Cobra or insurance. SO then the new IRS police will show up? FUCK THAT! (they'll just grab my bank account)

fuck the insurance companies.

goddamn insuirance companies charge doctors offices MILLIONS each year in malpractice insurance.
that raises the cost of medical procedures, which in turn raises the deductibles everyone must pay which means the insurance companies actually pay out LESS than they should, even when they are earning billions in profit, pure profit, yearly.

fucking insurance companies lobbied the crooked fucking politicos in austin tx to get a law changed which mandated that malpractice insurance for midwives was to be higher than for doctors, even though midwives are used by most hospitals, and have a very low malpractice rate. This essentially made hospitals in austin have to fire their midwives, leaving their overwhelmed OBstetrics department to take up the slack.
nice

Taking the long view on health reform
By Katrina vanden Heuvel
Wednesday, March 24, 2010;

How historic is the health-care reform bill that President Obama signed into law this morning? The bill only begins the long task of taking back control of the health-care system from rapacious insurance and drug companies. We must work to include a real public option and to eliminate the insurance industry's antitrust exemption.

cont...

now, sue them for 44,876769 cancer murders please.