Sonic Youth Gossip - The Eternal thread for those who feel like SY broke their hearts with this one

Sonic Youth Gossip (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/index.php)

- Sonic Gossip (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/forumdisplay.php?f=3)

- - The Eternal thread for those who feel like SY broke their hearts with this one (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=30822)

Quote:

Originally Posted by killthecaliforniagirls

totally agree with you alex_could. I really miss the creativity of o´Rourke. He had such a good influence on the music of sonic youth. It´s so strange to recognize that there are only about 3 or 4 people in here with a similar impress of the eternal. by the way i´m a "newbie", too and i totally don´t have a clue why this fact matters to anything.

I'd also like to say: Jim was king. If he's responsible for making "Free City Rhymes" cohesive, for getting them to rehearse and write as a band again like he did on Sonic Nurse and also I believe Murray Street, which you know ... WHY did they ever stop doing that? (and those are two of their greatest song collections if not their best albums, though MS is a favorite of mine) ... and his solo work is just awe-inspiring sometimes. Good points, guys.

Also ... The Eternal love is from people (like ourselves!) who are total die-hards because they actually bothered to pre-order the album, and so ... the love is strong right now. I think some more level-headed fans are going to come along when the album is actually out and, maybe not be as disappointed as we are (because ... we love 'em) but definitely knock down this absurd, "Wow, they're rockin' again!" or, "This reveals things on the third listen!" as if that necessarily means a quality, successful album.

Washing Machine and Murray Street are my favourites. When I 1st heard Sonic Nurse I thought that it's the band that won't let me down ever. I thought wrong, here's The Eternal!

Btw look at "Pay No Mind" cover! They're like saying: "We can make shit but you will still love it". No way.

I think it's interesting that most people who really dislike this album are fans of their more recent albums. Personally i always thought they've been too for a while (starting back with Goo but really picking up post ATL), not saying they've been bad albums but i always liked the rawer sound (for example i don't like Goo but i love the Goo 8 track demos... i think it's their best album).

Is this part of the problem? people wanting the continued 'phishyness' of their recent work and the band dipping back?

strange to tell you this guys but i´m kind of happy that i found you here. i feel completely the same. Achtually Free City Rhymes is my favourite song by SY. I listen to it over and over again. I had a same feeling with sympathy for the strawberry. I can´t imagine how people are able to write these songs. In my opinion only CAN had some similar moments. And yes i also thought that SY is the band that would never dissapoint me. I totally understand why they stopped doing that because that is the only way to come over to the next point. Maybe "The Eternal" is a passage to something new just like "Experimental jet set" was. BUT it wouldn´t make a difference to my opinion.

excuse my bad english and i really really LOVE sister, goo, dirty, Evol and bad moon rising.

And for "listen again and you'll like it eventually". It makes sense when you don't understand smth from first listenings. But here it's different, everything is clear: obviously it's a very weak record. Interesting how it'll be rated on Pitchfork.

Hey, german guy! I attended CAN's drummer (Jaki Liebezeit, right?) concert several days ago!!! I like CAN much!!! :)

And I also appreciate SY older records.

As Low once sang in one of their songs:
"Too many words, too many words"

Indeed! Why words at forum?

Fuuuuuck!!! and roooock!!! must be enough! And also huge pictures-signatures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_could

Fuuuuuck!!! and roooock!!! must be enough! And also huge pictures-signatures.

Privet, molodec.

Gotta love these leak day topics:

"OMG this is like the most uninspired record ever I hope Pitchfork will pan it!!"
"No wai, this fucking destroys everything they made the last two decades"
etc.
Can't we just treat the Eternal as the solid, yet not insta-classic addition to the SY catalogue it actually is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny American

for god's sake, don't listen to any kind of bluesy or folk music or retrograde 90s rock music. Listen to interesting stuff that blows your mind; go for Dirty Projectors or Fiery Furnaces or Animal Collective's more adventurous stuff instead of Dinosaur Jr. or Awesome Color or Be Your Own Pet, for crying out loud. And investigate actual new rhythms other than Neu!'s krautrock beat spiced up with some sloppily-on-the-dime stops. Return to the method of working that produced one of the best and longest runs in music history; save your band, guys.

haha

blues,folk,dinosaur jr: bad

fiery furnaces, animal colelctive: good

lol

I won't love their previous records less of course. I'm just confused with The Eternal. And their catalogue would be better without it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_could

I won't love their previous records less of course. I'm just confused with The Eternal. And their catalogue would be better without it!

Maybe we should give this stuff some time before making any harsh statements?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theremin

Can't we just treat the Eternal as the solid, yet not insta-classic addition to the SY catalogue it actually is?

And why you should be the one with the "right" opinion :D?
a hahah ah a I'm kidding, I'm enjoying the semi-trollish proliferation of posts/threads about these things.

Tomorrow I'll enjoy them less, most likely, and care about something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_could

It's pretty ignorant to assume you can hear what the people who like it are hearing.

And I like Fiery Furnaces and Animal Collective too!

Both songs of Fiery Furnaces and from The Eternal are crooked. But first crooks are adventurous and latter - ugly.

Why isn't it clear to everyone else that all of these new posters that suddenly sprung up with negative opinions of 'The Eternal' and with the exact same opinions (which they then pat each other on the back for sharing) are all actually Jim O'Rourke?

I had a hunch at first, but it became as clear as day when they started singing his praises.

You've been uncovered Jim. Nice try.

Okay guys, it's interesting with you but 1/3 of Jim O'Rourke has to go to sleep now. See you tomorrow, cheers!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by amerikangod

You've been uncovered Jim. Nice try.

Jim O'Rourke does not live in St.Petersburg, Sherlock.

That doesn't mean anything. He could be lying.

I don't see why Jim would be upset about The Eternal. His influence over the band is far more apparent on The Eternal than on Rather Ripped IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

That doesn't mean anything. He could be lying.

I don't see why Jim would be upset about The Eternal. His influence over the band is far more apparent on The Eternal than on Rather Ripped IMO.

He clearly has Ibold envy.

Ibold's awesome. I love his bass lines on the album.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Ibold's awesome. I love his bass lines on the album.

Ouch, you know Jim felt that one.

That said, Ibold loves the Youth in a way that Jim never could. Like, you look at all of the promotional photographs with Jim in them and you're all "Oh look, it's Sonic Youth and Jim," but when you look at the ones with Ibold in them you're just "Oh look, it's SONIC YOUTH." Their smiles seem to be more genuine too, like they really mean it this time and they're not just faking.

When you go from oil and water to a delicious mixed drink, the contrast is mightily stark. True flavor abound.

what if..........jim joined them on stage in japan???

what if jim joined mark ibold in backstage?

and you're the one who gets fed up with greedrex homo fantasies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_could

first of all fuck pitchfork up the ass. Seriously why do i (or you or anyone) care what they say? I like it and i know as much as they do.

also it's interesting you say you "appreciate SY older records"... i take that to means that they are ok but when you listen to SY you listen to newer stuff like Washing machine and Sonic Nurse... 2 albums i 'appreciate' but can't really say i ' like' as much as their older stuff.

Or I may be reading too much into it since English isn't your primary language.

I think anyone waiting for P4K to pan this thing shouldn't hold their breath, Sacred Trickster got a glowing review.

Anyway these folks are obviously the band. SY are testing us!

Quote:

Originally Posted by harlock_jds

Is this part of the problem? people wanting the continued 'phishyness' of their recent work and the band dipping back?

Sister, Washing Machine and Murray Street are probably my favorite records by them. Sister sometimes gets switched out with Daydream Nation, and Murray Street with Sonic Nurse despite having some less-than-interesting tracks. And then there's the fact that I love the majority of songs on probably most of their records except "Goo," EJSTNS, ATL, "Rather Ripped" (which is about 50-50), Confusion is Sex (sorta?) and obviously The Eternal. I don't know what exactly is Phish-y/jam band-y about the ATL through now stuff except for "Hits of Sunshine," which I thought was about as boring as they could get until this album. If anything, the Jim O'Rourke albums had elements of classic rock, not jam band music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshe

didn't listen to the album yet but most sy albums need a few spins before i can make my mind about them. i remember i used to hate nycgf on the first few listens/months and now it is one of my favorites. allow the album some time so it can sink...

same here. aside from daydream nation, experimental jet set..., a thousand leaves and bad moon rising... i have not liked any sy that much on the first few listens. i thought evol was so boring on the first few listens and now it's my second favorite sy album ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny American

I don't know what exactly is Phish-y/jam band-y about the ATL through now stuff except for "Hits of Sunshine," which I thought was about as boring as they could get until this album. If anything, the Jim O'Rourke albums had elements of classic rock, not jam band music.

that's just the feeling i got from Murray street to RR.. more kinda middle age jammy vibe (perhaps classic rock is a better way to put it i don't know). This album is certanly a break from tht rut and i'm glad for it as long as it isn't just another rut they fall into.

Just about the only albums i don't like are ATL (i actively hate that album actually it's an abortion) and EJSTNS (it seemed the bad went out of it's way to make an album that would drive away fans of Dirty).

Again i agree it is sonic youth ripping themselves off... it's just that i don't mind that. I have friends that have compleatly stopped liking them from the late 90's on and i really want to get their reaction to this.

Just for those wondering why the newbs opinions matter less... probably because no-one knows you, if you stick around people will get to know you and value your opinions. Just like in real life if someone you don't know gives you their opinion on something and you disagree you tend to discount more of it because of the fact that you don't know them. Unless of course it is someone like a lecturer, doctor, a respected person in your part of the world. So stop wondering why the regular posters will discount what you think about the Eternal... particularly after only hearing it for a few days...

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicfit

what if..........jim joined them on stage in japan???

Ibold's a really chill guy so he wouldn't be jealous at all, but I imagine Jim being really passive aggressive towards him. Just a bad scene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny American

A Thousand Leaves, Goo, and Confusion is Sex you'd list among yr "bad" Sonic Youth albums? Really? I mean, really?

I have never read so much crap on this board as I have in the last couple of days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Are we listening to the same album? I think this album is super tight and very energetic, whereas you think the complete opposite.

Also: fuck the Fiery Furnaces and Animal Collective.

I agree with the "super tight and very energetic" thing. I have listened to it like 30 times now. Anti orgasm is really cool. Antenna sounds great!!! And What we know, Lee sings beautifuly!:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

A Thousand Leaves, Goo, and Confusion is Sex you'd list among yr "bad" Sonic Youth albums? Really? I mean, really?

I wouldn't say they're bad ... just not my favorites by a long shot. A Thousand Leaves doesn't have almost anything on it as good as SYR 1. Goo sounds like junk, no matter what anybody says and no matter what they did to it for the remaster, has them absorbing a little too much generic rock for my tastes, and it doesn't play very well as an album to me. Some great songs though ... on all of them, 1982 - 2006.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny American

Man, I'm pretty bummed out by this. On every single Sonic Youth album up to "The Eternal," I think there have been scads of at the very least redeeming moments, even on their weakest overall albums, if not a series of successful, excellent songs that redefined, again and again, a sort of emotional or sonic journey the band could take you on, to new places, without leaving you lost. This album sounds like it was glued together from scraps of their other songs; they break into a bit strongly reminiscent of "Anagrama," or the music drops out like the mid-end of "Sympathy for the Strawberry." I did not know Sonic Youth to make awful songs, except for the occasional clunker ("Pink Steam," "Lights Out," "Hits of Sunshine" all being more boring than terrible).

I have never felt like Sonic Youth really repeated themselves or sounded the same album to album; it always seemed like they were engaged with music culture in a vital and awe-inspiring way, and this is why they've never really (to my ears) sounded like they were just aping their old moves in a mechanical, uninspiring way. I was never entirely bored by a Sonic Youth album before this one. They might be trying out new rhythmic moves and introducing some new oddly tasteless, retrograde 90s or cheesily bluesy (note Lee's songs, sounding oddly like musical and/or sonic rehashes of the mind-numbingly folksy "Lee #2" outtake from Goo) chord progressions on this album, but it could not sound more thoughtlessly executed. And so, some new musicology aside, this album finally sounds like the Sonic Youth that they have been accused of being by critics for years: a band that simply listened to their last couple albums, plus Thurston's last solo record, and then got together and recorded a bunch of songs that Thurston wrote himself, that weren't sussed out or significantly written together as a band, and then were done with business. Except I would have to replace the cliched criticism of them as "this is something they could write in an hour" with a sadly more biting, "this is something an imitator of theirs could write but wouldn't bother."

It's like their soul has dropped out of their music. The music doesn't progress in any kind of musically focused or emotional way that feels like it has any narrative or cohesion to it at all; it sounds like it was written by a random Sonic Youth song generator. "Massage the History" was generated by a code that read "Thurston's Academy sound" + "I Love You Golden Blue," and no other thoughts or emotions. What's worse, the guitar playing and vocal performances are often literally sloppy and awkward, in a way that suggests that they simply don't practice together the way they used to rather than some kind of bursting energy. They used to be a tight band, a New York hammer, and now when they try to rock, it sounds like they haven't been rehearsing as a band very much. The fact that, after a year off from the Daydream Nation sets, they played almost entirely Daydream Nation songs, suggests that indeed, they don't really work together as a unit very often anymore. This is where I think the band is going fatally wrong.

Let me repeat: I have found large aspects of ALL previous albums to love, including the, I think, thoughtlessly rejected "Rather Ripped" which at the very least has good songs on it, if not a lot of passionless noise sections that seem cut and pasted into the song structure like "The Eternal." I remember Lee saying that their songs were like sculpture around the Murray Street era, and up to that point, I believe that. This album sounds like a last-minute collage. It's unprecedently shoddy for me on all levels. I never imagined they could make something so artless. This is awful. I'm so saddened; the Sonics have been one of my favorite bands for so long and this is where they're going? Sloppiness, thoughtlessness and an outright artlessness. I never thought they would make an outright awful collection of pointlessly executed songs.

You know who doesn't want to write "killer tunes," Thurston? A band that is way more than some hack songwriting unit and is instead a blissful collective of identities rendered into a singular musical identity capable of expressing emotions on the level of true artists, rather than just mere songwriters. For evidence, see "Karenology," "I Love You Golden Blue," "Washing Machine," "Wildflower Soul," "Free City Rhymes," "Starfield Road," "Skip Tracer's" beatific ending, "100%," (especially live), the intro to "Tuff Gnarl," the frightening pulse of "Eliminator Jr.," pretty much anything from their entire catalog up to 2004. This band was called Sonic Youth. It appears to be, with the weak aspects of Rather Ripped and the absolute disaster of this album in terms of performances, arrangements and songwriting, a band that is gone, perhaps irrevocably so.

What should they do? Get a real producer that will actually challenge them and push them, like Jim O'Rourke tried to do, like even Butch Vig did in terms of performances, or John Siket's facilitations of their outward explorations on "Washing Machine." Start rehearsing and writing songs together as a unit; don't have Lee figure out his parts over the mail. And for god's sake, don't listen to any kind of bluesy or folk music or retrograde 90s rock music. Listen to interesting stuff that blows your mind; go for Dirty Projectors or Fiery Furnaces or Animal Collective's more adventurous stuff instead of Dinosaur Jr. or Awesome Color or Be Your Own Pet, for crying out loud. And investigate actual new rhythms other than Neu!'s krautrock beat spiced up with some sloppily-on-the-dime stops. Return to the method of working that produced one of the best and longest runs in music history; save your band, guys.

I don't think SY made the album to satisfy your needs johnny...
Maybe you should put forth your own spiel to SY, just so they can tell you to where to go. Life evolves, attitudes change, influences change during a 30 odd year career belting out music. If you don't like what you hear it is really simple don't purchase the goods, after all it is your own personal right.

Otherwise, sit back and just enjoy it for what it is the next stage in SY Life :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theremin

Can't we just treat the Eternal as the solid, yet not insta-classic addition to the SY catalogue it actually is?

No, that would be way too rational for the internetz.

To Johnny: if you think Eternal is the worst album SY's ever done, fine. You at least gave some thought-out reasons for that, even if I disagree with your opinion. But did it actually "break your heart," or are you just being overly dramatic to be an attention whore? Because it's just music, man. It's entertainment, not life and death. If you enjoy the tunes, listen to them; don't listen to the tunes that don't bring you enjoyment. If it truly broke your heart, you might need to just take a step back and lay off SY (and all music perhaps) for a while. Maybe read some books, maybe watch the complete Twin Peaks over the course of a month...something to get your mind off it for a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli Renfro

I could have said "The Eternal sucks, you guys" or something dumb like that and still gotten the same amount of attention/antipathy towards what I said. I do not think that music/art should be reduced with the qualifier "just" or "only." Art or entertainment or music may not be a matter of "life and death" but it most certainly is a matter of (and one of the best parts of) life, for me, right up there with, you know, friends, warm weather and babies or whatever. Don't you get the fun of being a fan of something? It's caring irrationally about something that gives you pleasure! In this case, it's caring irrationally that a generally infallible musical outfit let me way the hell down; expressing utter disappointment and even shock is any fan's right. You know, like the old cry of "sell out!" replaced with a more rare "Sudden incompetence? WTF?!" Is this really that hard for everybody to understand?