I Love the Muslims. Probably not quite as much as I love the latin country immigrants but close.

I mean, SOMALI FOOD? Y'all ever had that shit? Fuck anybody else who makes food.

you folks are missing the issue...

if European muslims feel disenfranchised (and as I see it, are disenfranchised) does this not provoke them? If anyone is disenfranchised through intolerance and racism does it not provoke them?

how do they feel disenfranchised? examples not vague theories.

europe is a large place, very large so the idea that one small community in a country feels bad because they didnt get town planning to build their mosque doesnt mean all of europe's muslims are the same way. if one community in Missouri doesn't get planning for their mosque are all american muslims disenfranchised? listen to the examples people have written here about how there are no problems in the communities they live in for muslims to openly seek their own religion.

where are you getting your theories from? what are you basing any of this on?

I don't honestly know enough about the region to put in a valid opinion. But I aint got nothin against muslims. They sell me really cheap ciggarettes here and all of thier jiffy stores carry "tobacco" pipes at better prices than head shops. I mean getting your bong and munchies at the Jiffy you can't beat that. Praise ALA

I get you, but with this thread point blank, if in Marsaille the mosque is not allowed to be built, it will provoke not only local French muslims who are currently meeting for prayer in basements and living rooms, but will become a spearhead for a larger outrage. Remember how absolutely pissed off the European muslims were about that cartoon depicting the Prophet? The fire spread far and wide across muslim communities in many European cities and regions..

This particular mosque in rural france is symbolic of a larger issue, and this very problem is playing itself out in a dozen places across the continent. Much like the FIFA thread, I am not going to dig up hours and hours of news articles to document all this, sorry Jon Boy, you either got to take me on my word on this or not, but for the past few years there has been a growing trend of intolerance against European muslims, specifically blocked or opposing their places of worship. If you can't see it, nothing I can do will show you, and I am sorry we disagree, but you simply accusing me of being ambiguous is silly and aside from the point entirely..

Its nothing personal, and yet the way you threw back some old gripe about the Holocaust to me makes me sad that you seem to be making it as such..

yeh that old holocaust thing, lets just forget about that huh? you just come accross as an idiot, sorry but you do.

and your a poet laureate right?

here is some reading for ya..

New European Mosques

 

Photo: Roland Halbe


All across Europe, the controversial construction of new mosques is raising questions about aesthetics and assimilation, faith and tolerance—and liberal democracy itself. MICHAEL Z. WISE reports.

From April 2006
UK and Europe Mosque Protests

By Jeffrey Imm • on June 1, 2010

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Everyone has a right to believe, a right to freedom of worship, and a right to freedom of conscience. These are universal human rights that are rights for all people around the world, regardless of whether we agree with their religion or faith (or lack thereof). Because we support such unquestioned freedom of conscience in a world where attacks on houses of worship are routine acts of hate, Responsible for Equality And Liberty (R.E.A.L.) is deeply concerned about the growing practice in the United Kingdom and Europe of protests at or against individual mosques.
In the United Kingdom, we are concerned about the recent protests and violence by protesters among the English Defence League (EDL) on April 3 and on May 2, 2010, and their efforts to block the mosque in Dudley.
Serbs block Bosnia mosque ceremony

 

The protests show the strength of nationalist feelings


Serb nationalists in Bosnia-Hercegovina have blocked an attempt to start rebuilding a mosque destroyed during the civil war.
Sunday, August 24, 2008

Italy: Northern League seeks to block mosque building


Italy's Northern League, the populist, xenophobic, sometimes separatist movement that is a key component of Silvio Berlusconi's governing coalition, has proposed new legislation which would in effect halt construction of new Islamic mosques.

and that was just a quick google search , I didn't make all this shit up.. Across Europe, in the UK, in Italy, in France, in Switzerland, in Germany, even in Eastern Europe and the Balkans there is a back lash and even persecution against Muslims and specifically the building of mosques... sorry if ya missed the news the past ten years or more but eh..

Why do you not concentrate on the larger amount of racism that exists in your own country, since it's bigger than Europe itself?

The problem is that for every single instance of mosques being opposed in the UK, there's any number of cities we can point to that suggest otherwise. London, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds are flush with mosques. Bristol doesn't have a very big Muslim population by comparison, but it does have ample mosques. There's plenty of instances of people opposing the building of new synagogues (most recently in High Barnet). I know of a church that failed to get planning permission. You can see these things as symptomatic of a broader 'Islamophobia' if you like, but the issue is much more complex than that.

I'd also add that Islam is in a very different position to, say, Hinduism or Sikhism. There's been a Beth Din in London for ages; there are motions in place to get Sharia courts in place on a similar basis. Properly Hindu cremations are still impossible, and Sikh burial rites similarly.

I'm not saying that my part of Europe doesn't have pockets of worrying attitudes towards Islam, but without a proper knowledge of the complexity of the issue, and looking at comparable religious groups, the criticism just seems a bit high-minded and fatuous.

Have you got any comment to make on the widespread spraypainting of swastikas on synagogues in (sharp intake of breath) areas with a high population of Jews and Muslims?

you have so much to learn, so much but that wont stop you running your keyboard off. sorry if your too idiotic to see that. from those stories which seem to sensationalize random acts by a minority you get the idea that europe is opposed to all mosques despite the fact that simply isnt true.

teach me all your wisdom, but can you manage to fit it in all of the 20 or so words you ever contribute to any thread here?


when don't I concentrate on American racism? (its safe to say I beat that dead horse beyond the grave)

with this thread I thought I would switch it up a bit ;)


It is a complex issue indeed, but it does seem cut and dry. If European communities continue to resist mosque development, it will bite them in the ass, just as Jim Crowe and the series of Gentleman's Agreements in US History bit it in the ass...
Sure, there are mosques being built in plenty of European communities, but that is not the beef that Muslims have there, their beef is with the communities that won't let mosques be built, and whether its a mosque or a church or a synagogue to prohibit its building is negative and intolerant. With European Muslims, it can be out right dangerous, and the history of Islamic radicalism and its tendency for violence is evidence enough (after all, this issue is not merely religion vs religion, but in reality is a complex mesh of history, colonialism, bad-blood, disenfranchisement, politics etc etc), I thought it was self-evident but I guess I am just a silly american overstepping my boundaries.. I will back off and let y'all do y'all thing, time will reveal itself in the end.

It's not really a question of you overstepping your boundaries - you have a valid point in that there's an increased resistance to certain high-profile Islamic activities. The problem is more in your tenor and presentation. Also, as a few have pointed out, it's well worth mentioning that the last decade of militant, radical 'Islamic' (I use that term very loosely) activity was focussed first on the states; it was only the later realisation that parts of Europe (Spain, England, Germany etc) were complicit in the US's foreign policy that lead to activities such as the July 7th bombings - and even so, there was nothing like the scale of activity that took place on September 11th.

Islamic radicalism is, to my mind, a mis-nomer. Islamic radicalism might mean the '77 revolution, or the Iranian guard, but there are very few vistas of orthodoxly Islamic thought that venerate groups such as Al-Quaeda; even in Radical Islamist Pakistan there's a desire to be separated from an internationally vilified terrorist organisation, and that includes those radicals who which to militate against the 'Westernisation' of Pakistani polity. There's a worrying trend of far-right Western politics that seeks to align terrorism with the more right-ist concerns of Islamic thought. The (apparently) popular resistance to a Sharia court comparable to London's Beth Din is much more denigrating to Islamic 'integration' (which has already happened in most senses) than the odd rejection of planning permission.

I can, however, only really speak for the UK, and even though the UK is a big territory, the problems in my locale are very, very different to the problems in, say, Blackburn or Penzance.

The article you linked above mentions Serbian nationalists; if you really think that the problems besetting Bosniaks at the moment (and for the last 30+ years) are in any way comparable to a Muslim in Hackney (east-London), then you really are way off-mark. I don't know the States, at all, but I'd imagine that's like comparing Alaska to Alabama. If it's not, then I apologise - just as you seem to assume Europe is a single, homogeneous territorial culture, I assume that USA is a massive and diffuse set of cultures, bound not even by geographical demarcation (the struggles of a NY Jew are doubtless completely different to a NY Shinto).

Oh, and one more thing - Muslims might not have it great, but they've also got used to a lot of British culture. I would be astonished if the rejection of a planning proposal were takenas 'Islamophobia' given that it's a bastard to build anything in the UK. Locally, some Muslims took over a derelict church recently, and the area's seen quite an improvement in prosperity (with related shops springing up to service the community) as result.

when do I say "dude?"

Dude. Any time you want.

And no-one's judging you if you precede it with "I like..."

No. They judge because jokes are interspersed with conversation.

"serious" people never joke around!

In Civilization 4, I sometimes refuse to build mosques in my cities when it prompts me to.

Sometimes I also implement slavery.

CHILL DUDES

Open borders agreement, spread some Confucianism. Have that, Montezuma!

Also, never play with Barbarians. They just fuck shit up.

I won't bother arguing on the whole thing but I'd just like to point out Marseille is not rural France at all. Marseille = 800,000 residents. Just saying.

ok dont post sweeping generalizations of things you have little or no understanding of.

why dont you go to the holocaust museum in LA? then comment if its 'disneyesque'.

I agree with you completely, the issues in Europe are very much complex and diverse. I know very well that Europe is not a homogenous place, just as the US is not, BUT, just like racism against blacks seems to be a relatively universal problem across the diversity of US life, so to does it seem to me (from the past few years of news reports, forgive me for relying on the news, I don't live in Europe and aside from Glice, no body from Europe here ever bothers to contribute some intelligent reasoning on the subject, rather than emotional mud slinging) that across the diversity of Europe a common theme has been a resistance to mosque building and other vestiges of Islam.
I do not want to see an Islamitization of Europe, but I am just calling it as I see it, if the many different Europeans want to cool the fires with their muslim populations, perhaps they should mellow out just a bit, that is all I have been trying to say..



big up.

been there, its actually quite biased and even borderline racist much like its sister institution the so-called museum of tolerance..

jon boy, I think I figured it out, you seem to always equate my statements about Europe or Europeans as meaning "you" when it does not necessarily. If you say "Americans" or "America" i do not automatically assume you are referring to me, because much like Europe, America is a diverse place, and there are a lot of different opinions, beliefs and reactions. I can accept a criticism of America or Americans without it having to be personalized, but maybe that is because I only see myself as a quasi-american. but I have good reason to, I am no longer a full US citizen and my entitlement to several Federal benefits such as student aid, food stamps, federal employment other such things have been permanently revoked unless I decide to have a formal hearing with the Department of Selective Services in regards to my decade long anti-war stance...

You did understand that when I said "Europe" I didn't directly imply Jon-Boy right? and there are in fact many Europeans who are in fact intolerant against muslims, regardless if you are or not..

Fair enough. I have to say, from my perspective there's a much more visible Muslim population in Europe. This isn't a USA vs Europe statement - that doesn't help anyone - but outside of the problems facing the Rom population (I imagine Slavo could provide more info on that), there isn't anything comparable to huge numbers of people marching outside the White House on the basis that Barack Obama might be a Muslim. Which, as we know, is as far from the truth as possible.

I think in terms of representing the European approach to Islam, somewhere like Turkey is a really interesting place - somewhere with a Muslim majority which fights en masse for a secular government against Islamic pressure. Certainly, there are problems facing the Muslim populations in various pockets of Europe (again, somewhere like Bradford in the UK is a good example) but I can only see that as more to do with the machinations of poverty than it is to do with a specific 'beef' with Islam. Also in the UK we've seen a downsurge in support for (very very) minority parties like the BNP in areas where they've tried to galvanise (foment) 'support' for their anti-immigration policies.

Also, this (tangentially).

Jon Boy's in the quite unique position of having spent quite a bit of time in the UK, US and Canada, I'd just like to point out.

100% agreed. I would prefer to tackle the real underlying issues of economic and political disenfranchisement that European muslims sometimes face, but the surface bubble is bursting over mosques and burqas and such things, and while the real beef is over money and power, this socio-religious drama adds more fuel to the ever-growing fire. As Rob so poignently points out, religion can be quite a divisive and dangerous thing in the wrong hands and for the wrong reasons, and as I added to his point, makes a wonder disguise for legitimizing and mainstreaming political and economic issues in the name of religion (ie, the protestant movement against catholics or the Crusades or the Reconquista etc etc)

I usually quite like jon boy but he has been a pain in my ass here ever since he didn't like my anti-auschwitsz thread..

I wish he would get over it already, it is bad baggage when we used to get along very well, now he just attacks all my posts with nonsense and no substance. at least you like to have a true reasoning whether you agree or not. With this thread I wanted to have an honest discussion, and also I wanted to learn from Europeans how they felt and get some real information, but all he did was diss me and failed to contribute anything of substance, which was no help to me at all :(

I thought that by the way, but the newsreport I saw portrayed it as a rural community and showed some suburban, semi-rural scenery so I was a bit confused. Thanks for the clear up! If anything, that proves my point so much more!

Well, I tend to think that if you want to take up a repressed European culture, the Bosniaks or the Rom are a better place to start than just Muslims. The only place I know of where traveller community (and not even necessarily Rom) aren't oppressed (per se) are some areas of Spain, and even then I don't know for sure.

are travellers=gypsies?

Some travellers are Gypsies. Some travellers are not. There's quite a few different groups of travellers, all widely derided for blanket reasons.

in America we just call Europe's tradition of 'travelers' poor folks (well, some Americans have taken to the euphemisms of 'spics and niggers and towl heads' ;) )

So what?

Sweetheart. C'mon. Why the antagonism? You know we been vibing lately. You wanna link up sometime? I'll bet you're a minx in the sack, aren't you dollface?

y'all should be careful, if you think Rastafari were homophobic you ain't seen the half that never been told ;)

generally your posts dont have substance. thats why i call you out on them.

and round your mums house, tell her she still owes me a tenner.

i live next to a cathedral. it rings bells every fifteen minutes. after two days you just don't notie it anymore.

there are a lot of mosques in my city, but they are not built like the ones in islamic countries, they are housed in regular buildings on regular streets. no minarets.

some time ago there were some cries from an extreme right party about the plan to assign churches that were out of use (meaning rather modern chruches with no significant historic value) to muslim communities who could turn them into mosques. these politicians started sprading poorly photoshopped pictures of the antwerp cathedral (a famous monument) with a pinaret on it. ridiculous of course, these plans were for churches built in the seventies, churches that weren't used at all anymore since church visits have dropped so much over the years. if people go to church, they will go to a nice old one.

I've read some catholic church are being sold in Europe (some old ones too), and turned into nightclubs or housing..

In the meantime, such scenes takes place in Paris, quite frequently it seems:

indeed, and it surprises me that there isn't a lot more protest about that, since those churches are usually the older ones (often a gothic church)

but yeah, turning it into a nightclub isn't as bad as making it into a house of another god..

i have a few muslim friends, and they are absolutely nothing to be afraid of. they are young people who go to school, have parties, have friends like any other kid in belgium, except they follow some different rules. one of them is in a relationship with a girl who drinks and smokes, and he doesn't make a poitn out of it.

oh and suchfriends: europe isn't as racist or close-minded as you seem to think. you probably only get the radical voices in your media, just like we usually only get the reports on the radical patriotic americans. if you would actually live here you would see that a large majority of people here has no problems with other religions, as long as they don't overrule our own cultures and traditions. there is this small group called sharia4belgium (the little brother of the now illegal uk variety) who want the whole country to live by the rules of islam. i would not be fine with that since i don't w