I actually once wrote a college essay for a women's studies course in which i argued from this exact stance :D

Agreed. Just because men act inappropriately does not mean that it's healthy for her to also do so.

Still, I do agree with the point that she gets a lot of shit for acting outside of her set aside role. She is a fascinating character to watch. Also, Live Through This was the first "alternative" album I ever bought so Hole will always have a special place in my heart.

Yeah I agree with that, I just think you're barking up the wrong tree when you say that to me (I guess you wern'et talking specifically to me, but I thought you were) because it's not how I'm thinking.

i'll try everything once. well not everything-- but this one is intriguing enough.

is this a good book?

Oh c'mon, that's a bit much, now. I feel a bit dirty inside for pointing out the most obvious of things, which is that she only gets blamed for this and for that because she was married to Kurdt, and it's perfectly ok for a lot of males to be casually misogynistic. As usual.

courtney is a crazy opportunist bitch but she made great records and provides the world with entertainment via her being a fucking spectacle. she's gotten a lot of shit she doesn't deserve. give the woman a break, she's been through hell 26 times.

You know, if yr gonna preach something you might wanna start practicing it....

Just because men aren't given shit for it does not mean that it's acceptable for woman either. But yeah....I agree...the shit that Courtney gets is, for the most part, uncalled for. While being initiative and breaking the bounds, we have placed her in the category of being a hysterical woman. Most people now a days seem to only know her as Kurt's crazy wife...I've actually gotten shocked reactions when I've mentioned that she makes (...made) some pretty swank music. slut kiss girl won't you promise her smack, is she pretty on the inside baby, pretty ON THE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

I think that's absolutely true. Although I think the shit she gets (which seems to come mostly from Nirvana and Sonic Youth fans) begs the question as to what that actual role is that she's acting outside of.

Yeah...totally!

The mindfuck that she produces sometimes makes me kinda wanna think of her as being a demented but awesome icon to watch and study.... even sometimes from a feminist perspective...

i also think that courtney actually had a lot of relevant critism about riot grrrl, but that's a whole other point entirely.

either way, her music is banging.

courtney was right on about riot girl. she defied traditional roles by SHOWING us that she could rock just as hard as the boys, kathleen and co. as much as i like them, were pretty much all talk. actions speak louder than words.

a lot of things people say/have said about her in a negative light may have been totally uncalled for but she has certainly put herself in a position to be talked shit on over the years.

Her brief association with the riot grrrl thing was a bit of an anomaly in terms of her career as a (w)hole. Riot Grrrl always struck me (maybe wrongly) as a movement designed to promote the role of women in alternative music. I tend to think that from the beginning though, Courtney Love's only real interest was in promoting herself. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing (well I am, actually) but a lot of what she was associated with (even outside of Riot Grrrl) was very scene based, with a definite sense that you worked to promote that scene - which is certainly something that, say, Sonic Youth have done. I don't think Courtney Love was ever interested in any kind of scene promotion that didn't immediately, and overwhelmingly benefit her. Had she formed some kind of uber-self centred LA hair metal band, this would've not only been expected but completely acceptable according to the ideology of that scene. Within the alt rock scene of the early 90s though it was something to be frowned upon, which is why (despite the fact that she was hardly alone in using the scene ultimately to promote herself) i think her rep within that scene is now so low.

^yes

as kat bjelland said

"i like playing music. courtney likes being famous."

CL definitely had an agenda from the very beginning

did you notice the clever thing that I did with the word 'whole'?

yes. good boy.

Yes, I, for the most part, agree. Riot grrrl was also very politicized and CL was not - once again, she was all about herself, not "her sisters."

I thought that it was very on target what Courtney basically said "Great, you riot grrrls picked up instruments! Now learn how to friggin play them!"

Getting girls to feel comfortable playing is just one thing...but it really can't stop there. I get the feeling that the lack of talent and amount of talk in riot grrl may be a part of why so many people in this thread hated the movement. I personally think that getting girls to feel comfortable enough to show their faces and work together and start playing is only often a first step in the process of the amazing of an awesome rocker.

We already had this discussion. :confused:

Yeah, it's kind of insane how much her first two albums seem like they could see the future.

Haha, yes. Weren't they also seeing into the present though?

^^^ totally


She was right about that, but then again, she didn't even take her own advice, really. The only album she really played guitar on was their first one and she was good (When you could hear it since it was almost always pushed completely back in the mix). But later she relied on Erlandson (a MAN) to play the guitar, and then completely on CS.

The thing that pisses me off most about Courtney is that she is full of extremely smart, good ideas. But she never follows through with them. She gets distracted and gives up on them before they ever really come to fruition.

I also totally agree with you here. I also think that CL's criticism of riot grrrl was kinda stunted because she didn't really offer alternatives.

You know, drugs really do turn people into hypocrites and prevent people from reaching their potential.

I don't see how my responses are any more "preachy" than yours... oh, that's right! because they have a "feminist/feminazi agenda" attached! i honestly find that assumption to be pretty hilarious. everybody has their own background/cultural & theoretical grounding and you very cleary have your own. it's kinda pathetic that you got some sick pleasure out of harassing me online but once again, whatever, i just seriously hope that you regulate that type of behavior to the internet man....

i'm glad that you can at least admit that you get some sort of strange fulfillment out of yr hatred of me. be aware, cuz im positive that no matter what i do or say, it will continue. :D

i'm so done by now.



and to the rest, yalz got me listening to hole all day!

it's so clear how little of what i type you actually read, which makes this conversation all the more hilarious. because obviously all you want to do is attack me.


i'm out to the phone store so peace out (or not, whatever you want)

I haven't listened to hole in such a long time. Pretty on the inside is a good album.

Live through this is second imo.

pretty on the inside got me into hole. live through this kept my interest.

celebrity skin is not hole.

Malibu and Celebrity skin are the only Hole songs I like from that album.

their first singles are so so so so fucking brilliant

i am OBSESSED with retard girl

Ah, I haven't left yet....got kept at work...

Retard Girl is amazing!

20 Years in the Dakota (and yes, i know she smashes riot grrrl on this one...once again, people are allowed to have contradictory interests) and Burn Black are probably my favorite Hole songs...I really value most everything on My Body the Hand Grenade...

the guitar sound on retard girl especially but also on the other early shit sounds so dirty and nasty and awesome. & there are few people who sing with such genuine rage.

I soooo agree with you here.

hole are rubbish!

did that really warrant an exclamation point?

if all that riot grrrl was meant to be was a way for girls to 'rock just as hard as the boys' then it was a lot less interesting than I thought. Despite the name, there were boys involved in riot grrrl too and from my memory the idea was never to reach some kind of equilibrium with the rock world. My memory of it is that it was more an attempt to find some kind of an alternative to it. It rejected ideas like technique, gear fetish and and other coventions that were staples of the mainstream rock world, and had begun to find their way into alternative rock via bands like dinosaur. A lot of those ideas were borrowed from the post-punk/c86 era but, as secondhand and maybe even naive as those ideas may have been, they were far more exciting than merely campaigning for women to be taken seriously while rocking out during guitar solos. Vixen had already sort of done that.

okay.

how many of those bands lost members, split up, or turned rubbish due to drug use?

yes!

yeah, it's not like a rock version of hollywood feminism which means women get to maim and kill on screen as much as men do.

merzbow blows!

he blows up holes!