record labels and getting a deal in 2007
 

so,

one of the two bands i'm in has been recently getting some credit and we've been contacted by some record label. i won't explain all details but i would like to share this experience. the labels want us guys to provide money for the press of our first full lenght. then they will have to be in charge for ARTISTIC PRODUCTION (which means, if for example they do not like a verse, a part of a certain tune, they can actually force us to change it) and they also said WE will have to pay for such a job. lastly, they want us to travel all the way to their studios to record the songs - and obviously want us to pay for the hours in there as well.

i thought label support would mean getting these things covered - financially, over all and mostly.

it turns out it's a major screw up.

what are your thoughts? we have ours already... and it's very clear. but i want to know what you people think about it.

I say fuck them!

that sounds like a terrible terrible contract, but it is great you guys are getting some recognition. when signing contracts you really should spend the money and get an entertainment lawyer to look things over and explain things you don't understand. i would be trying to get out of that contract. however everyone has to pay their recording fees etc whether it is before or after the fact, but why did you sign contracts giving away artistic control?

no no, we did not sign anything at all as of yet. a good friend of ours who works as a lawyer is backing us up, and we're very aware of the dangers of signing such things. mind you guys, that this was not a single record label getting to us to propose this whole deal... this actually seems to be the way things happen in the biz nowadays.

we too feel very happy for the recognition, and the label reps have been very enthusiastic about our stuff... but man, you know what? these days a few things started hitting me in the face all together:

1 - the problem with music (s. albini) http://negativland.com/albini.html
2 - interview with david lynch http://youtube.com/watch?v=X64YQIKtnJs
3 - interview with trent rezonr (and i am not a fan of the guy at all)
4 - several john carpenter and george a. romero interviews on the studio system and the digital era of doing things...

all i have to say is - we get to sign a deal, and record the thing having to pay ALL OF THAT STUFF... and what do we get? an overpriced cd in stores that no one will give a fuck any way? i say, we get the music out there as we are doing already, and if someone cares enough to listen they'll eventually ask us a cd or something...

it certainly is frustrating seeing our cd getting reviewed on zines after all teh fancy signed bands that are up and down, but what the fuck: the way we want things done - that is our priority.

everyone has to pay for their recordings, noone gets to do this for free, the thing is what do you know about their studio, can you bring you own engineer and producer and donot sign away any artisic control, you are chatting on a board of probably the most pioneering rock band for the last century try and ask questions of them if you can. either way you pay for the recordings whether you are on a major, and indie or diy. if you diy then you can shop around for distro which is far more economical.

Sounds like a raw deal to me. Not that I know anything about record contracts.

there is a clause, i cant remember what it is called but it is to do with a&r people, if the a&r person leaves their job at the label you signed at, you can leave the contract too, however you do need to get this written into the contract.

I was totally naive about this - I thought the label was supposed to give you economical support... we'll end up doing it ourselves - for sure. I'd love to shop around for distro but so far, it's kinda hard to tell what will happen.

I will be in Chicago on july 13th at the pitchfork fest. I'd love to meet Steve and ask him personally about this... but this seems unlikely. Who knows?

Thanx for the input man.

I used to drum for a band that got signed to a good-sized indie that I think most of you have heard of.

Paper contract, we own the masters... real cool. Our contact, one of the owners, was the only one we went through and was very direct... it was all a pleasant experience, for the most part.

After signing to an expandable one record contract, dude forked over an advance for the recording which afforded us some recording gear.

50/50 after the label makes back expenses, pretty standard for indies, from what I've heard.

We were pretty lucky in that we toured with a band which contained an ex-member of a band that used to be on the label... the label heads saw us play together, and ended up singing us. We got wined and dined, signed and treated fairly and they were cool people to boot.

I've heard a LOT of horror stories, so I consider myself lucky.

That is horrible.
I have managed to get the support of kind labels who give me complete freedom. We pay our own recording expenses (and we have our own studio, so this is pretty moot by this point), but the content is all under our control, as is the art. I have worked out different royalty agreements for different releases, but most of the time a smaller indie will tend to go for just "paying" us in a certain percentage of copies out of the pressing for us to do with what we will, which is fine. I have also waited for royalties to come in when a pressing sells out, which was nice as well, but took patience. To me, a "real" record label takes the financial risk of producing the product for its bands. If you have to put all that money into it, you might as well try going it on your own to start with anyway.
I would never go for a "deal" where I had to pay for production costs without artistic control; I don't know why anyone would. I would advise you to shop your stuff around and wait for something better; if nothing better comes along, just put it out yourself. There are a lot of distros and mailorder outlets available to go direct with.

I have gotten the 50/50 after label expenses deal that Bicorn mentioned as well. I found that completely reasonable.

That's the way it works these days in far too many cases. One needs investors, a manager/lawyer and an agent to even become a band anyone will hear in the post-Cobain music biz. In short, one must be some spoiled little rich kid. The post-Basquiat art world has similar bullshit going down. If you're just an "emerging artist," any gallery with an actual reputation, in addition to commission, charges you to exhibit your paintings.

Of course, there's always the outside chance that your music or art has relevance and that you have some talent. In this case, you can sometimes get lucky due to who you know and buck the system, but you better not be too much of an individual, or too intelligent. You must assume the role of vacant syncophant for insiders that may help to like you as a person and not feel threatened by you. It's what I've found.

P.S. people SUCK

Max's scenario just strikes me as insanity.
In today's climate, the only advantages to being on a label lie in production, distribution and press coverage/promotion all being taken care of for you. Now, of course any one of these things is an advantage in and of itself, but the full package is what makes things alluring. Having to take all that financial risk really should be the burden of the people running the label. Press and promotion are valuable services, but production and distribution are where the expenses and risks really lie, and if you have to take on that risk you might as well start your own label so you can also reap the lion's share of the rewards should things go well for you. Obviously people are paying attention to you if you are being courted by anyone.

Fuck 'em Max...you don't need 'em...something better may come along anyway.

Yeah, seriously, I would write and send your kit to other music companies about the injustice just like you've written to us here. What have you got to lose? You've got some cred, you've got material, you've proven you're a hard-worker that wants to make music a career in that respect, so roll the dice. Maybe you'll contact a company that has some beef with the company trying to fuck you without lube, and they'll give you a shot out of spite.

Atari - that's very much the case. "In short, one must be some spoiled little rich kid." Either that, or you get the occasional mecenate thingie. Like CATHERINE BACHMANN AND NICOLAS CERESOLE... or the guy which gave David Lynch the money to build up a very personal "moving picture" installation in his house.

Bicorn - that's quite the deal, I'm glad for you man.

Savage Clone, we'll wait till I'll come back from the US of A (late july) and then we'll decide. We mostly want to play out there somehow. I guess we'll buy a van and try to book some shows aroound Europe.

that's it man, that is it... we'll get it done our way and who fuckin' cares about not getting to the stores? it's not like someone's gonna be richer or anything like that. we like what we do and we simply enjoy that - we don't want this whole thing to become something to fight on...

thanx a lot everyone for sharing different points of view. as for the whole injustice feel - at this very point i think we just want our music to be heard, but damn, surely i am pissed off. if it would just depend on me, i'd do anything to try and fuck shit up. i know the rest of the band feels like that but i'm also quite sure that they'd want to keep cool, and simply go on. i'm one of the angriest in the flock.

here in fuckin Italy, no matter what, music is just something to fuck kids over.

i dunno, in any way we'll get our thing done.

what really really pisses me off is to see some bands getting better deals and better treatment becuz of what they play. the niche treatment, ie - hardcore music is getting huge here. seems like it's VERY easy to get a deal and get out with that if you play hc stuff, right now.

Right, & the "creative input" bit is when they make you sound as much like the niche as possible.

Oh, it's Italy. Well, it's bad here in the U.S. too. It's usually the subsiduaries of large companies that like to fucking charge you for your dream. They never promote you properly, and they always steal your money. Shit, they probably write you off somehow on their taxes later and exaggerate what they lost on you---probably the crux of the biscuit of the whole scam. PolyGram here in the U.S. (now part of Universal Music Group), and Polydor (the Universal subsid in the UK) are especially notorious dream-thieves. Sonic Youth really should have nothing to do with them, but I guess Interscope/Geffen was absorbed or some shit.

In Italy, all you get is the subsiduaries really. Not entirely, but those are always the ones supposedly "giving you opportunities."

yeah. the bad thing is - these guys really want to pass on like INDIE SAVIOURS. these ain't even HUGE companies... these are the kinda guys you would expect to know what being in a garage rehearsing tunes is like. the kinda guys you would expect to lend you a hand, not trying to fuck you over.

utopia... anyone?

Damn, here in the U.S. you just make a college town a home base and put out some cds on your own or a buddy's label.

I feel like an idiot for not reading your location next to your avatar earlier. Beer makes you stupid, but sometimes I need a little since I gave up the harder stuff.

that would be just great, man.
really.
i'm bringing a shitload of demos for when i'll be in Chitown (my 4th time there)... i'll try to see if anyone is interested. kinda dreamlike but what the hell. i really prefer a shot in the dark like this - much better than getting the "label" treatment.

Chicago is fairly awesome. There are a lot of real art lovers there.
The government there has always been oppressive up until very recently, and as a reaction to that, there's just all these really reasonable, pragmatic and patient artists that live there that really do what they can to help when they can.

I have family there, some friends too, and I totally agree with you. People seems always genuinely interested in good stuff, and I've never had a single bad experience. People has always been very cool to me in there.
We'll see what happens...

i know max hates me and has me on ignore but...

...he should use this label's attention to get others to look at his band and get a better deal, if he wishes to go that route.

Stop hating Everyneurotic now haha! {quoted} I can never stick to ignore lists. I'm worthless and weak. I'm glad max put the chainsaw away. I remember that much.

By the way, I agree wholeheatedly but fear his options in Italy are (at least perceived to be) somewhat limited. I wonder how many companies with decent European (let alone U.S.) distribution there even are in Italy.

yeah, the chainsaw is long gone, but the buzzing sounds can still be heard. i don't hate anyone... sometimes i just despise with a passion. :)

it's a no-win situation when these labels here are the ones interested and there's limited options (as atari really well perceives) to what we can
choose. all i know is i am very glad that in around a week i'll earn my degree in sound engineering - a two years course of studies that has allowed me to reach the knowledge i needed to at least record and mix my stuff without too many headaches.

i'll get my hands on a new soundcard soon (the alesis IO 26, anyone knows about it btw? i have a TASCAM US122 and a US428 and they really kick ass but we need more input channels) and that way we'll get to do what we can. we have too many tracks ready and it's time to fix these into an album and start focusing on what's next...

You remind me why we don't put our stuff out on a label (at least not anything larger than a fellow home taper who we hand the stuff to and who just does the rest). We even had Kramer approach us about recording us (not for Second Shimmy, but for hire), but can't find a label willing to advance that. Granted, I haven't looked that hard, because I'm not interested in the grind of having to tour to recoup expenses and all that shit (my band has member in 4 different cities currently!) Thank God for the internet and the ability to distribute stuff for free.

I agree.

If you guys have to pay for the recording etc and then this label can tell you to change it depending on their tastes and demands, then you may aswell just record it all yourself and shop around for another label as you're already half way there. They want you guys to do all the work and them sit back and reep the rewards. Shit label. Where's the benefit for you guys? I'm assuming they'll be paying for distribution and publisity etc, but I'm sure you guys could find someone to do that or even do it yourself. Doesn't seem like a good deal to me - I'd prefer to be independent and shop around.

I think there are some nice labels here in italy.
Now, I also think those labels are so "little" (in terms of copies sold) that they won't help you pay the rent and so on, but they can give you some sort of "exposure".
I'm talking about things like www.wallacerecords.com or www.supernaturalcat.com and maybe a few others that, thanks to their "interesting" rosters, have some credit around europe and maybe in usa too, to an extent...
I think you don't want to deal with our nice italian frickin' fake indie scene ( and all the "hip" labels that cream their pants hearing clap your hands say yeah and architecture in helsikni)...Having an album out on a little label that gets some attention is better than having an album out "unnoticed" on a bigger label imo. The problem is, as always, money. If you want to make a living out of your passion for music, I really wouldn't know what suggestions to give. Furthermore, you live on an ISLAND! man, you are certainly not in an easy situation... I say, go to catania, talk to uzeda and steve albini, make him mention your band in an interview on pitchfork and you're served. ha ha.
Sorry, I ran out of serious thoughts. By the way, guys, I think it's hard in every country in the world, but here in italy the sitaution is scary to say the least. It's sad, there was such a nice "independent" movement going on in the early 90's, and now it's all dead. Not everything was THAT interesting, but it sure helped some bands getting the recognition/exposure they deserved. Nowadays all the youngsters listen to those fake poppunk bands and dress like avril lavigne (males too ha ha) and download the soundtracks of cell phones tv ads. Blaaah. I think there's the ABSOLUTE need for some "connections" outside Italy to stand a chance to get some recognition. And, you know, many decent italian bands start to get some credit here ONLY after a foreign magazine or band say nice things about them.

you totally nailed it, Nic! and coming from you - not only a strong (and very appreciated) supporter of what we did, but mostly a music lover - that should really depict the real state of things.

"indie" has always pissed me off as a term, but nowadays it's pure anger when i get to think there are fuckers out there just relying on the sole word to score some easy cash and get away with their bullshit.

independent - oh really?

but whatever - another useless rant in some pointless direction. i dunno. i've been awake the whole night and around 5.33 am i started wanting to throw up. so did i - right until now. it's up and down... i won't mess again with pizzas, coffee flavored ice cream and cold water. it surely doesn't help colitis, man.

My two cents: the main problem is there is FAR TOO MUCH music out there. And there are no patterns to follow to get some recognition. Some bands get known just for their great live gigs (and I'd suggest to book as many dates as you can, word of mouth is a powerful ally), some put a song on their myspace and get signed just for that fuck^ng tune, some put a video on youtube ( ;) ) and everyone goes nuts, bah, it's a true mess out there. I have a feeling that luck plays a big part in all this music biz insanity, and that's a bit of a shame, considering pure talent seems to be not enough even to get the slightest chance to be simply heard by a decent amount of people.. I think that a proper "deal" isn't the crucial issue, you could get rich selling cds with paypal ( maybe...), the real problem is : how to make people listen to my tunes rather than to the other millions of gazillions tunes available on myspace and such? A: dunno :( .
There are countless "side project" of members of "well known" bands ( no hint to SY members here) that are simply uninterestingly awful that get attention just for the names on the cover. I think the hardest step is the first one, i.e. : get people to know your band and your music. If they like what they hear, it's all up to the viral marketing stuff ;) .

just to clarify on the payment front, if you sign to a label say for example sony; they pay you an adavnce to allow you to record get your artwork done, film clips etc and then they reclaim the costs on record from sales over time and if they are lucky and you get the marketing support as well then you may just sell a few records.

What if records' sales won't cover their initial outcomes? (naif question, sorry..)

that is true also, Terminal P... but I thought some "new, open minded" record label which goes around with an "indie" reputation could at least support the costs of the fucking PRESS!

I mean - all we ask for is just that, plain and simple: we get to record with our equipment and our money, the way we want; we get them a copy of the masters along with artwork; they print it out and put it in stores; we go around, play gigs, share royalties or what the fuck happens at that point (if we get to sell something) and deal is done.

that's all we ask for...

to answer Nic's question... what happens at that point is that the band owes the label money. as Albini said...

"The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige."

then the record company loses its immediate outlay, however the bands do have to repay the debt unless the contract negotions were good at first sight, in the end you may aswell take a loan from a bank as far as i am concerned and hire a good engineer and producer, someone who work you know and respect.

here we go: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dkw-CP_WvXM - that's how we want it...

That's why unless your band sells a shit load of albums on your debut, you're not bound to make much money back because you're paying the label back. Then if you don't make the units/cash then you get dropped, but I believe you don't have to pay the money back. This happens alot, apparently only 1 out of 10 bands actually "makes it".

Email Steve, he almost always replies and he's the nicest guy.

steve@smellslikerecords.com

I think... I don't wanna bother him. I dunno... I'm quite sure he's full of stuff... to do. But thanx a lot for your advice man...

Oh, I'm sure Steve wouldn't mind if you emailed him. I've emailed him about much less important things and he's always given me a friendly reply. This is a serious matter for you, so I think it would be good to get the advice of a musician who has had experience with labels.