reassessing goo
 

thank God this isn't a Fall messageboard, otherwise this whole reassessing thing would take years. As it is it should only take a couple of days, especially the way this insomnia thing is hitting me right now. I don't think I've listened to this much Sonic Youth in this short a space of time in, well, ever.

So anyway, Goo, an album that for the longest time I've been pretty down on. I'm one of those boring 'it all went wrong after DDN' types, which is why it's been sort of great for me to listen to the later stuff again with more of an open mind. So, as ever...

..here goes

1. Dirty Boots. A nice riff that's sort of loose and lazy but still has enough energy to move the old hips. The chorus though is just a little bit too eager to please, if you know what I mean. For some reason I can never listen to this without thinking of that awful video they did for it.

2. Tunic. I always think, given its theme, that this would've fitted in well on EVOL. Interesting how violent the music here actually is, especially compared with Kim's laid back vocal delivery. This is largely lost in an awful mix, even on the Spec. Edition remaster.

3. Mary-Christ. Straight ahead thrash-pop run through with some OK distorted backing vox and a nicely strangulated solo but ... well ... not that great really.

4. Kool Thing. I can imagine that this divides people. I quite like it. The vox are of course great but again, like Tunic, it's easy to forget just how savage the music is on this one. Again though, this is lost in the mix.

5. Mote. I'm not as big a fan of Lee's stuff as some people are on this board. I tend to find his songwriting a little awkward compared with his guitar playing. As such, I like the music here a lot but find the vox and structure a bit, well, shit really. Of course, the centrepiece of the track is the noise section at the end which is what Lee's always done best anyway.

6. My Friend Goo. Forget the irritating sing-along vox and listen to that bass. Kim really is one THE great bassists in rock and its a shame how she's increasingly sidelined this part of her role in the band.

7. Disappearer. There's no substitute for good songwriting and all the nice little guitar lines in the world won't save this from being just a pretty bad song. It's like 100 things going on at once, only about five of which are any good.

8. Mildred Pierce. More filthy bass from Kim and some great shouty vox from Thurston at the end. Short but rather sweet.

9. Cinderella's Big Score. Given the theme of this song it seems a bit hard to criticise it, but anyway. Apart from this truly amazing little throwaway guitar riff from Thurston that comes approx. three minutes in CBS is a bit of a mess. Another case of too many things happening at once, too few of which are actually any good. This really is one of the most poorly produced albums imaginable, and all the remastering in the world won't alter that fact.

10. Scooter and Jinx. Sounds like the end of Mote. Only less interesting.

11. Titanium Expose. Musically this sounds a lot like Kool Thing. Unfortunately it has this really weak guitar hook and the whole thing is just far too messy, which sort of sums up the album as a whole for me.

Remembering that this is the band that wrote songs like Brother James, Death Valley '69 (albeit with Lydia Lunch), Expressway to Yr Skull, Schizophrenia and Teenage Riot it seems incredible that they couldn't write a single decent song here - especially considering that this album was meant to act as a springboard for their big leap into the mainstream. It's almost like the pressure of commercial success had frozen their more instinctive talents. I really think it took them up to the release of A Thousand Leaves to properly recover from this disaster of an album which, if anything is actually worse than I remembered.

I think that Lee is an incredible guitarist but have never thought of him as a great songwriter. I totally agree that if he left the band it'd be a disaster, but not for the songs he contributes so much as for what he does musically. So far as I know it was with Dirty that he came closest to leaving. I can't imagine him being that interested in the direction they were going creatively at that time anyway. Can you honestly see him rushing to buy either Goo or Dirty if they'd been made by another band?

That whole would SY buy their own albums thing is interesting. Thurston probably would because he seems to buy everything anyway. Kim, probably - asuming she couldn't listen to Thurston's copy. Steve, no idea. He's a drummer. He probably doesn't buy records at all, being far too busy hitting any convenient flat surface - much to the irritation of anyone around him. I think Lee would've bought everything up to DDN and then maybe A Thousand Leaves, Murray Street and NYC Ghosts and Flowers. As for Goo, can you really see him giving a shit about an album with Kool Thing on it? The guy's a Dead Head at heart.

Thurston plays bass on My Friend Goo.

I got into this album this year actually.

Best Bits: Tunic, Kool Thing, Cinderella's Big Score, Mote, Disappear

W>T>F!!! GOo ist beaut. fun and beautiful, wierd and colourful, quick and rockin'. my fave. As for all the major label/ their big shot at the mainstream hoo ha, the only engagement with that stuff i can see in the album itself is the photos where they seem to be having a great time ripping the piss out of it.

First Sonic Youth record that I've ever bought. It's not one that I play a lot now, but apart from my friend goo and maybe some of the irritating lyrics on some of the songs, I'm still a more than satisfied customer. Lee Ranaldo's vocals on Mote always reminded me of Rem, somehow. It must be the use of a megaphone.

Oops:o

Yep, and that bass tone that d-rail responded to that launches the "My Friend Goo" track was the recording engineering work of T & Butch Vig or perhaps tweak-boosted in mixing by T & Andy Wallace and it seems to be Butch/Andy on trial more than anyone in demonr's post and I can understand where he's coming from (like Lee's Mote vocal tone sounding sorta '90s), but only to a certain degree.

Mildred Pierce is actually one of their earliest songs and is in standard tuning.
And the songs for Goo were written right alongside the songs for Daydream Nation for the most part, so the whole popular notion of them doing a 180 or whatever with Goo is a bit of an invented one. Although, Goo is, of course, the first album for which they were able to first really craft something in a recording studio with known music biz types, and yeah this naturally led to both pros and cons.

Most of the album is in the F#F#F#F#EB tuning, so there are some similar tones at times throughout; I suppose that's why Titanium Expose got all caught up with Kool Thing to demonrail666.

TitEx and Cinderella's = give it up for th3 funky drummer hee. Tunic and Disappearer (I can't help but find d-rail's remarks about it offensive er ah maybe that's my problem) are classic Sonic Youth.

I forget where I rate Goo overall; I think I put it seventh the last time around. So ah, don't think that I'm freakin' with ya too bad...I'm just stating some basics rather badly. willingly incogoofyherent&
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reassessing

 

An album I don't think much about that is surprisingly consistent.

1. Dirty Boots. Amazing opener. Love the guitar tones. The part at the end reminds me of classical music.. just unbelievable. Never a bad part in this song, perhaps the quickest 5 1/2 minutes in Sonic Youth's catalogue. Too bad about the lyrics. Starting your album with the best song may not be the best idea in the world, though..

2. Tunic. The guitar tones are just bizarre.. this song is decent enough, the guitar is compelling, but it doesn't go anywhere and is way too long. Meh.

3. Mary-Christ. Bad production can't hide this is a good song, but it doesn't mean I want to listen to it. Strange shouted background vocals (a Sonic Youth first?) and some cool guitar interplay make it a decent enough listen, but the mixing is just so, so, SO bad.

4. Kool Thing. This song is also way too long and unneccassary, but the riff right after the rapper cameo makes it worth listening to. WEIRD guitar tones again. Geez.

5. Mote. Lee's songs are always the best, musically lyrically vocally. The guitar.. jesus.. what's with the TONES on this album? Haha. How did they get that sound? Again, a bit too long and muddy sounding. I dunno. Just boring.

6. My Friend Goo. Terrible.

7. Disappearer. Amazing! Love the riffs; this song really tells a story. Probably my favorite Sonic Youth video too.

8. Mildred Pierce. Thank god they cut this down from the version that was on the deluxe edition of Goo.. hah.. a nice enough song, SY's first song if I'm not mistaken?, but really really unneccassary.

9. Cinderella's Big Score. Another song that is musically unbelievable with tons of interesting riffs. Probably the most interesting song on the album. The production, like Dirty Boots, doesn't seem so bad here, it isn't distracting like the rest of the songs.

10. Scooter and Jinx. Pointless. 4 layers of guitar feedback and fuzz. Wow. Just shitty filler (wasn't Mildred Pierce filler enough? or My Friend Goo, for that matter?)..

11. Titanium Expose. Another one of the best Sonic Youth songs musically, this song is epic as fuck... there's a part a little into it right after the main riff where it goes "dundundun dun dun dun", which is one of the .. toughest .. things Sonic Youth's played. "Tough" as in "brutal". Awesome. Love the riffs and love how the songs goes from this kinda violent and complex composition into a beautiful little midtempo somber number back into the complexness of the beginning. A fine way to end an album and one of SY's best songs.

Basically, an album with too much filler that is very very forgettable. The production is interesting guitar-wise, but the vocals are way too loud and echoey, and the album as a whole is just too muddy. An interesting listen filled with precisely 3 amazing songs. Whatever. This is the same band who made Daydream Nation?!

Yeah, and the same band that amassed such an amazing body of work that will be listened, talked about and analized for many years to come. First sign that some things aren't worth the harsh criticism treatment that they objectively and simply do not deserve, after all.

Now theres no need to bring sodomy into this.

I coiuldn't help throwing that little innuendo there for good measure.

i think it's a good album where the good songs are really good, i mean, genius good even in some cases (dirty boots, mote, titanium expose), but there's many...failed experiments in pop songwriting married with unconventional/noise rock music/arrangements. my friend goo, scooter and jinx and tunic are abyssmally awful, some of the few instances where sonic youth has put filler on an album on purpose.

to me, it's something that they would perfect in dirty.

I respect yr opinions on this whatever they r. this was my first encounter with SY and still it sounded better and different to all what I've heard b4 and made me check them out, which in the end changed lots in music part of my life. well there was few encounters like that, but this one was the best one.

nice post Atari - them facts.

this album scores low points, because it's the first time that thurston's sassiness starts to shine through (something that would drag down their next two albums and his solo work).

I'm fairly certain that both Thurston and Kim have stated that they are not huge fans of Goo, just for the record

Oh, for fuck's sake atsonicpark! And look, I even like you, if you were in doubt.

"silly rabbit, trix are for kids." - thurston moore

Just shows what different opinions people have. Goo is my favourite SY album by a mile and is pretty much what got me into the band in the first place. Dirty Boots is a great opener. Tunic is utterly immense, both in its sound (great production) and the manner in which it deals with its subject matter (Karen Carpenter) - and Mote is simply No. 1 of the 400+ SY song list. The noise count is pretty high throughout - matched only by the louder bits of The Diamond Sea. Mildred Pierce - well there should be more songs like that (and played on daytime radio too). There's at least one KG song on every album which annoys me, except on Goo. If I had to ditch any albums, A Thousand Leaves and Murray Street would get the boot quickest. Goo is pure punk f*****g rock and the greatest aural noise ever to come out of a pair of speakers. Absolutely outstanding in every respect.

whats wrong with dirty boots video? i like it

I think goo is their most accross the board punk record till that point. And i mean the straight-up strain of punk. They'd been dying to be less arty and more punk for years, that's what warmed them to steve in the 1st place. When i saw the goo tour I thought it was really streamlined, all the fat taken out, and there's something to be said for that (even though they do excell at the 'good fat'). that quality of the goo stuff seemed well married to them being on a major label for the 1st time.. straight foreward is also accessible. but that might have been a happy convenience as opposed to something mercenary

I really like "Goo" probably because it's the first SY album I picked up so it has some sentimental value to me.

Mote is just epic, the first SY song I've heard and it was love on first sight, it took me a while to get into the noise part though... Somehow it grew on me like fungus.

Okay, I'm game.

1. Dirty Boots. I still remember buying the vinyl on the day this album was released, walking home to my crappy apartment, and dropping the needle. I was curious, to say the least, because I figured there was no life after Daydream Nation. I think I thought DN was a fluke--that they'd lucked into being able to combine noise and lulling atmospherics with songcraft, wit and snazz. Fade up into that ethereal tone and you're immediately in space (life goes on after all). This is the first time Steve does that thing with the shaker to fill out (slightly off-kilter) his rhythm. That killed me and still does. Simple but effective--he's been my favorite rock drummer ever since. The lyrics are promising, but were better before I figured them out verbatim. The chord progression sounds totally familiar, even the proto-grunge freak out midway through, but that's because they invented that shit, not because you've heard it before. The song ends in swirls, but that last crash hit sounds like an afterthought, like a band in a room playing (complete with amp hum) when all this time you'd thought you were listening to an alien orchestra. This song is a masterpiece.

2. Tunic. Scary. Not funny. Where "The Sprawl" left off, this one takes over. It's the best Sonic Youth video, too. Some of Kim's best lyrics between "Shadow of a Doubt" and the stuff on "A Thousand Leaves."

3. Mary-Christ. Coming out of the oceanic couple of album openers, the first stab of this song reminded me of what a powerful rock band SY could be. Kind of fun--reminds me of the odd angularity of Thurston's songs on "Sister," which was my favorite album leading up to this point. Sill sounds good.

4. Kool Thing. In part, this is a great song because it captured something of the times--I think you had to be there, but maybe not. Imagine a moment when Nirvana still really weren't even that good. Grunge did not exist. Public Enemy were the most transgressive thing white dweebs like us could find. Then Kim comes along and does that duet. The other reason it's a great song is that it once and for all made good on the Stooges/MC5/Ramones cock-rock punk influence that'd been looking for a home in SY's music for years. The riff bends into their signature tunings in a way that is unique. No one will ever play a note of this riff more convincingly.

5. Mote. Fulfills the promise of Lee's poetry in song. One thing that tends to go unrecognized about Lee is that he's a confessionalist, and in some ways he's better at it than he is at being a beatnik. So the riff off of Sylvia Plath is both homage and spontaneous self-expression. This was released when I still believed in both. No mannerisms when he follows his lead part in the chorus, unlike Kurt's more widely imitated rendition of that little trick. The wind-out full of noise and churning (looping?) alien transmissions is totally spot on and plays out the ramifications of the pop song that leads into it. It never dissipates, so they fade it. I wish they'd have given us the whole thing on the reissue. Where did it go from there?!

6. My Friend Goo. Good for a laugh. But weirdly, years later, the damn thing gets stuck in my head and won't leave. I'd never say it's catchy, but I guess it is.

7. Disappearer. This one didn't stand the test of time. It's trying to do what candle did, but this time with better lyrics. I'll give it that. But I still skip it when this track comes on.

8. Mildred Pierce. Simple layering of a quasi-metal progression around some funked out new wave beat patrol--exploding into some art-school radio hijinks. At the time it seemed profound and I'd have killed or died to hear it live. Never will, I bet.

9. Cinderella's Big Score. Brilliant. Once or twice a rock song has seemed to be "talking about my life." This was one of those times. Everyone's playing for the song--they just gel. The vocal harmonies (subtle and few) are eerie and perfect. Also wish'd I'd heard it live.

10. Scooter and Jinx. This would make no sense if it weren't for the fade in immediately after. Well, the video makes sense of it in another way.

11. Titanium Expose. The raw, reflective feedback that opens this song is proof positive that the band have a sophisticated and widening sense of the sounds they are capable of producing without a plectrum. More new-wave leads interlacing over angular beats and occasional chunky rock passages that just sound great, especially here where most bands land their power ballad. The alternating vocals betweek Thurston and Kim are extraordinarly effective and should be used more often (see "Schizophrenia"). Like Daydream Nation, we're given a definite sense of closure. The coda collapses in on itself and we hear the very last touch of sound. It's also a love song, which they've proven to do so well without most people noticing. Compare to the next great album closer of that year: "Something in the Way." The Youth clearly emerge victors by contrast. I think that if they revived this song to close their shows, it'd become a "classic" in retrospect.

cinderellas big score is one of my favorites on goo. apparently its kim addressing her brother or something, according to thurston?

"The alternating vocals betweek Thurston and Kim are extraordinarly effective and should be used more often (see "Schizophrenia")."

i agree with that alot because i think schizophrenia is probably one of their best songs, mainly because it actually sounds like a mental illness, and kim and thurston should definitely share more songs.

Goo is probably their most accessible record, in my opinion. I have friends who really don't like SY but love "Kool Thing" and "Dirty Boots". Still, I like this record a lot. I know it's hated on quite a bit by some people cause it's their first major label record and whatever. I think maybe some people don't like it cause they feel it was kind of a let down after Daydream Nation, which is understandable, but you've gotta evaluate the album on it's own merits and not just write it off cause you thought they'd never top Daydream. Anway, I really do enjoy Goo. "Tunic" is one of my single favorite SY songs of all time, the guitars on this track (and the whole record really) just seem to buzz so perfectly, and the tone of the song is just so dark... I love it! Also, the intro to "Cinderella's Big Score" is amazing, in fact, the whole song is pretty good, but that intro always sticks out in my mind. "My Friend Goo" sucks, I really can't stand that one at all, but overall I really like this album a lot.

I totally agree about Kool Thing being some kind of symbolic coming-together of two major forces. As a song its sort of dated now but then it seemed somehow significant. Much has been made of the parallels between DDN and It Takes a Nation of Millions in that awful DDN book. But even though the case may be overstated, there was a definite sense at the time that PE and SY were in their own ways the two most vital forces in popular music.

I'm listening to Goo again right now, and have to say that I was probably too harsh in what I said about it before. It has this overall epic sense that isn't reducable to individual tracks, being somehow better than the sum of its parts. Still not a great album in my opinion, equally it's not the disaster I made it out to be.

Love this album, and I disagree almost compeltely with everything said in the first post. Honestly, I love how this one sounds, really filthy and messy, and I don't often pay much attentiont to production. Good songs needn't worry about production, if they are good songs. Goo has good songs (in fact, it has some fucking brilliant songs, including Mary-Christ, Mote, Dirty Boots, Dissappearer, etc.). It also has one of their worst songs... My Friend Goo. And admittedly, Scooter + Jinx is just filler, but still short enough to not care about it's fillerosity. It's a cool listen anyway.
Yeh, more unchained thoughts on an album!

But for real, demonrail... space these threads out more...

Personally, I think I may like Goo slightly more than Daydream Nation, at least at times. I'm still way more into the experimental/noise side of the band ala Bad Moon Rising and the SYR series, but as their poppier records go, I think Goo is nearly as fully realized as Sister, Daydream, and Washing Machine. Or for that matter the first record, which is another poppier one.

I never for the life of me understand this dichotomy of saying they did something or were some way up to a certain point in time and then never again. That just isn't Sonic Youth. They've always pushed at least two boundaries and sometimes focus on one more than the other. They followed the first record in all it's pristine glory with Confusion is Sex and then when everybody wanted to brand them "noise rock" they went back to melodic weird tuning stuff.

Goo is not my favorite Sonic Youth album, but I still love it, and think it's better than 99% of the recorded music I've had to hear in my life. My favorite song is "Titanium Expose" and there are some I like more than others, but even the cheesier moments ("Goo", "Kool Thing") work as they are so obviously intentionally so. I beg to differ on "Scooter and Jinx", as it's a cool little noise burst and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Kern's video for it is fucking awesome too!

In fact, the Goo video album is honestly about the only fully videoized album I've ever watched all the way through that consistently worked. The mix of visual and director styles is totally in line with the mix of audio directions. It's fun to watch and fun to listen to.

This seems to sum it up rather well actually: "It has this overall epic sense that isn't reducable to individual tracks, being somehow better than the sum of its parts."

All sparkly and shit.

yeah, let me just reiterate: this is one of the worst-produced albums i've ever heard.

it was my first too

Weird because to me Disappearer is perfect.

i share your thoughts almost in their entirely so i'm not going to repeat them.

tunic: don't particularly like the video and not too hot on the lyrics, but love the song.

titanium expose: possibly the only sonic youth song that bothers me. i just can't get past what i perceive to be an awful main riff. it sounds more like a guitar exercise than a valid melody. the rest of the song is good, especially the powerful chord parts and vocal interchanges, but i would have prefered they closed with cinderella's big score.

it would have been less closure, but it would have driven home the point of cinderella's big score (and the album in general) perfectly. to finish such a conflicting album on such a 'high' track just seems pointless to me. the album needed a closing track that was full of love, despair, anger and loss i.e. cinderella's big score.

i don't think titanium expose belongs on this album; the fact that it is and it's positioning in the flow of the album perhaps helps to explains scooter and jinx a little bit better. maybe the label had hoped to make this a single or wanted some filler (6.30 min), i dunno - just doesn't smell right.

i always finish my listen of goo after cinderella's big score, it makes perfect (if short) sense that way.

I like the lyrics, they show an understanding of what anorexia is really about.

Huh, perhaps this is why I find it sounds so good played through a t.v. from vhs tape.

So many of my favorite albums are considered "worst-produced" by somebody or other. I've taken shit from a record producer I didn't particularly like at all for playing Electro-Purra by Yo La Tengo for instance. Often the records that somebody hates production-wise that I still love are not the same records that other people hate for that same aesthetic reason.

Mind, I'm not belittling anyone for judging music aesthetically, there is no other way really, but I just don't find the judgements consistent in any sort of technical way. Attacking "production" often strikes me as a way to try and claim that one's own taste is backed up by some sort of technical reality, when more often, it's just taste.

Well, I'm glad some of us have at least helped you revise your opinion - I listened to Murray St today and liked it more then I had ever done before.

It isn't a patch on Goo, though, which some of us (well, me anyway) hold to be the best album of all time - ever!

Rab

You have a point.

no.

i'm saying that the production is muddy and makes it sound weird, especially for a major lable debut. that's pretty much a fact that 99% of people agree with. i even said in my first post "bad production can't hide that it's a good song"; but it can make it a chore to listen to.

http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sho...2&postcount=29