now freedom must be fundamental, in johannesburg or south central
 

Violence spreads in Johannesburg

Scenes of violence on the streets of Johannesburg

At least 12 people have been killed in the South African city of Johannesburg since Friday in a wave of violence directed at immigrants, police say.
Police have used tear gas and rubber bullets to try to stop gangs of armed youths from attacking foreigners and looting and burning their property.
Five people were killed overnight in the area of Cleveland. Two of them were burned and the others beaten to death.
More than 50 were taken to hospitals with gunshot and stab wounds.
During the day, a church where about 1,000 Zimbabweans have been taking refuge was attacked.












Bishop Paul Veryn of the Central Methodist Church which was attacked told SABC radio: "We consider that the situation is getting so serious that the police can no longer control it."
As night fell, immigrants were streaming into one police station near downtown Johannesburg carrying whatever belongings they could, reports Caroline Hawley.
Many now fear for their lives, she reports. One Zimbabwean woman told the BBC she would flee back home rather than risk losing her two children to the mobs.
Social problems



Foreigners have been trying to flee the violence

The trouble began a week ago in the sprawling township of Alexandra. Immigrants from neighbouring African countries were set upon by men with guns and iron bars chanting "kick the foreigners out".
Terrified Zimbabweans, Mozambicans and Malawians fled to the safety of the local police station and to another township, Diepsloot.
They were then attacked there as well - shacks were burnt down and shops looted. The violence has since spread to other areas.
Since the end of apartheid, millions of African immigrants have poured into South Africa seeking jobs and sanctuary. But they have become scapegoats for many of the country's social problems - its high rate of unemployment, a shortage of housing and one of the worst levels of crime in the world.



Police have been trying to restore order in Diepsloot township

The South African Red Cross is now providing food and blankets to hundreds of frightened immigrants forced from their homes.
President Thabo Mbeki said he would set up a panel of experts to investigate the violence.
The leader of the governing African National Congress, Jacob Zuma, condemned the attacks.
"We cannot allow South Africa to be famous for xenophobia," he told a conference in Pretoria.

The problems in South Africa, as with those of a number of countries from which the refugees are fleeing (because of the UK's colonial ties with Zimabwe we hear about those a lot) are becoming so great that whenever I read about them I honestly wonder where to even begin. Half of me makes links between their post-colonial situation and countries like the former Yugoslavia, in so far as a virtual dictatorship clearly served one purpose, if nothing else, of supressing those underlying internal social tensions which, once given free reign with the breaking up of the Soviet Bloc and the various other empires, left the ordinary citizens of those countries in a situation that is surely no better than that from which they were originally liberated.

I really have no clue what the answer to all of this is.

just let them fight it out until they get bored

i say build a massive set of stairs and give them all slinkys

Easy...call in Paris Hilton.

There, job done. Anyone fancy a drink?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7407914.stm [with video]



Thousands flee S Africa attacks


Some parts of Johannesburg resembled a war-zone

Some 6,000 people have fled a wave of attacks on foreigners in South Africa, which has left at least 22 dead, aid workers say.
"This is a classic refugee situation," Rachel Cohen from Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) told the BBC.
Many of those who have sought refuge in police stations, churches and community halls are Zimbabweans, who have fled violence and poverty at home.
Up to three million Zimbabweans are thought to be in South Africa.
The BBC's Caroline Hawley in Johannesburg says the immigrants have become a scapegoat for social problems, such as unemployment, crime and a lack of housing.
Mobs of South Africans continue to roam around some townships near Johannesburg, looking for foreigners and looting their shops.
But there have also been attacks on South Africans from other parts of the country, especially from near the Zimbabwean border.
Over the weekend, correspondents say central Johannesburg resembled a war-zone, as armed police used tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse angry crowds.

SOUTH AFRICA

Foreign population: 3-5m
Majority from Zimbabwe, also Mozambique, Nigeria
Total population: 49m
Unemployment rate: 30%



In pictures: Johannesburg violence
S Africa violence: Your stories
Foreign attacks concern SA press

"If we go back into the streets, they're going to kill us there," one Zimbabwean man seeking sanctuary in a police station told the BBC.
Some Zimbabweans say they will go home, despite the political violence there, rather than face attacks in South Africa.
The front pages of several South African newspapers on Monday show a horrific image of a man being burnt to death.
The police say they have made more than 200 arrests for crimes including murder, rape and robbery.
"We're not talking about xenophobia, we're talking about criminality," said police spokesman Govindsamy Mariemuthoo.
He said police reservists and officers from other regions had been called in to help quell the violence, reports the AP news agency.
Loren Landau, from the Wits University Forced Migration Studies Programme, said the nature of the attacks was changing.
"We're seeing what was an anti-foreigner conflict transforming into what might be seen as an ethnic conflict," he told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme, pointing to the attacks on South Africans.
He also said much of the violence was "opportunistic crime".
'State of emergency'
A church where about 1,000 Zimbabweans have been taking refuge was attacked over the weekend.
Bishop Paul Veryn of the Central Methodist Church which was attacked told SABC radio: "We consider that the situation is getting so serious that the police can no longer control it."
He called for a state of emergency to be declared.


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Scenes of violence on the streets of Johannesburg

MSF spokesman Eric Goemaere said: "This reminds me of a refugee situation. I have treated bullet wounds, beaten people, rape victims, and the people are terrified."
The attacks on foreigners began a week ago in the township of Alexandra, north of Johannesburg, before spreading to the city centre and across the Gauteng region.
President Thabo Mbeki said he would set up a panel of experts to investigate the violence.
The leader of the governing African National Congress, Jacob Zuma, has also condemned the attacks.
"We cannot allow South Africa to be famous for xenophobia," he told a conference in Pretoria.
But the Human Rights Commission on Monday accused the government of not doing enough to address the underlying problems.
"There has been poor leadership in this country as far as these issues are concerned," HRC chief executive Tseliso Thipanyane told public radio.
He pointed out that there was a wave of attacks on foreigners in the late 1990s, before the situation eased in following years.
Since the end of apartheid, migrants from across Africa have gone to South Africa, attracted by its relative prosperity.

From being a nation infamous for apartheid, to one infamous for xenophobia. There's progress for ya!

there have been 8 chiefs of police of CiudaD jUAREZ (2 MILLION PLUS PEOPLE RIGHT ACCROSS THE BORDER FROM EL PASO) MURDERED BY DRUG GANGS
this year alone.

(sorry about the caps lock)

but the rich and powerful in the US need their cocaine to have fun!
and they need the poor sucking on crack pipes to maintain their power status quo!

that was in white ruled south africa.
in black south africa, socio-cultural and ethnic differences have fostered at times violent xenophobia for hundreds of years before white encrouchment, so it is just an unfortunate return to a bad norm. but this does point out the problems in africa with interstate migration and refugees, as the decline in one african state forces a huge migration into its neighbors, and then they fall into decline being unable to cope, and so even more refuges and migrants take flight into other neighboring countries, hence all the Zimbabweans, Malawians, and Mozambiquans...

these kinds of things happen in the united states all the time, though not on this massive scale of civil conflict and unrest, but it is not uncommon for a group of pissed of racist white kids to go beat up and even kill migrant workers in the border regions and farm centers of america. xenophobia and racism are about as common in human societies as farting.

Or bring in Angelina Jolie, she'll take all the kids. That way no more fighting in a generation or two.

she is calling in for back up

This didn't just start the other day. It's been going on for quite some time now. When Apartheid ended, most native South Africans briefly saw a promising future, and what happened?... Criminals of all sorts, especially the Nigerian mafia, pulled in and took over. They control most of the townships now, They run the drug trade (mainly crack), prostitution, extortion, kidnapping, you name it.
Border controls are non-existant and the government should be held accountable for the escalations in recent days.

Regretably, I have to agree with you there. Not a nice thing to say but frankly, I've just lost patience with the place.

Army may tackle S Africa attacks


Police say they have made almost 300 arrests

South African security ministers have been discussing using the army to help stop a wave of attacks on foreigners, which has left at least 23 people dead.
The deployment of troops, which has been demanded by human rights groups and the opposition, could not be ruled out, said a top ruling party official.
The violence has spread to four new areas near Johannesburg, while 13,000 have reportedly fled their homes.
President Thabo Mbeki has condemned the "shameful and criminal" violence.
Mobs of South Africans have been roaming townships, looking for foreigners, many of whom have sought refuge in police stations, churches and community halls.

What kind of nation are we building - one which rejoices at someone who is burning, who is engulfed by flames?


Gauteng Premier Mbhazima Shilowa

There are believed to be between three and five million foreigners living in South Africa - most are Zimbabweans fleeing poverty and violence at home.
The attacks have spread to new areas in the Ekurhuleni region around Johannesburg, local official Zweli Dlamini told the BBC.
In the latest attacks, two people, believed to be miners from Mozambique, were beaten to death, reports South Africa's Independent Online website.
There have also been reports of attacks on South Africans from other parts of the country.
Home Affairs Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula has promised that no illegal migrants would be deported during the attacks.
Her husband, Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula, promised that those who had fled their homes would be given adequate shelter.
Attacks 'orchestrated'
ANC secretary general Gwede Mantashe said that if the army was deployed, it would be to back up the police.
Police reinforcements have already been sent to the affected areas and President Mbeki said they would get "to the root of the anarchy".
On Monday, a coalition of human rights groups, called the attacks a "national emergency" and urged the government to "consider whether deployment of the military is not necessary at this stage".
The police say they have made another 40 arrests overnight, on top of the 250 in recent days.


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Mobs of South Africans roam townships

Gauteng Premier Mbhazima Shilowa said the police would make the decision on whether it was necessary to call in the army.
"The situation is dire and we must intervene and intervene forcefully," he said in a debate in the Gauteng legislature.
"What kind of nation are we building - one which rejoices at someone who is burning, who is engulfed by flames?" he asked in reference to a shocking photograph used on the front pages of several newspapers on Monday.
Mr Mantashe also said the ANC had held talks with the mainly Zulu opposition Inkatha Freedom Party and noted that most of the flashpoints had been in areas where the IFP had a presence.



The IFP has denied any links to the violence.
Bishop Paul Veryn, who runs the Central Methodist Church, where many foreigners have sought shelter and which was attacked over the weekend, said the attacks were "clearly orchestrated".
He told the BBC's Network Africa programme that the mobs appeared to know exactly where foreigners lived.
"That information would not be accessible if they did not have access to councillors, to people in authority."
He also blamed the poverty and massive inequality of wealth in South Africa for the violence.
Some South Africans say foreigners are taking jobs from locals and contributing to crime.
Up to three million Zimbabweans are thought to be in South Africa, having fled violence and poverty at home.
Some Zimbabweans say they will go home, despite the political violence there, rather than face attacks in South Africa.
"If we go back into the streets, they're going to kill us there," one Zimbabwean man seeking sanctuary in a police station told the BBC.
But Mr Mbeki urged South Africans to welcome refugees.
"Citizens from other countries on the African continent and beyond are as human as we are and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity."
The attacks on foreigners began a week ago in the township of Alexandra, north of Johannesburg, before spreading to the city centre and across the Gauteng region.

You do realise that if everyone copy & pasted a political article that interested them in a day then this forum would be even more gratingly dull and uninspiring than it is already? Just a thought.

haterz wanna hate, loverz wanna love...

And it would seem that interminable bores just wanna bore.

Anyway, in a bid to return to the original topic of this thread, here's a picture of a really good album by the Italian pop star Sabrina.

Let's be entirely clear - most are interminable bores (myself included if you're firmly entrenched in the 'I have wrong opinions on everything' camp) - rarely are they so prolifigate.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, I'm getting married. Lalalalala.

Sorry, I just posted a really shitty, underhand message here. I deleted it because I'm actually quite a nice person. Just so you know.

you're engaged? for real? congratulations

I hope she is a base to counter act your acid!


PHYSICS!

chemistry!

achieve a Ph balance! 7!!!!

Drink, Sex, Cigarettes
Ford Cortina household pets
Bombs? War? Famine? Death?
An apathetic public couldn t care less

The Public watches ITV
Reads The Sun drinks cups of tea
Two-star family stay content
Their lives controlled by parliament
Well daddy's lost his job again
Because he never had no brain
He only lives to watch TV
His life controlled by apathy

The Russians seem so far away
The government seems to be OK
The papers never mention war
Cos the people that they cater for have got:.

The things that you never knew were there
Or was it that you didn't care
The biggest problem face to face
An apathetic human race

oh yeah all those threads about yr high school masturbation habits are so much better. just buy a box of kleenex and get over it already.

This isn't a political article. It icurrent events. I know your generation is scared of meaning, of substance, of truth, but hey life is harsh.

Hi there. I'm not sure what sort of gratification you're after, but I'll probably disappoint. Which generation am I again?

You'll probably find a more substantial engagement with whatever political position you're espousing (other than withering and vain criticism) if you endeavoured to engage me rather than spaffing a blanket assumption about who I am and why I am criticising this thread. I like an argument, but yours isn't one (any more than mine was, granted).

kthxbai lol.

Oxymoron, by the way.

Like Glice says, "Cunts" all of you.

hey no one is forcing you to read every thread and responding to every thread that you aren't interested in. for some reason you (2nd person plural) feel obligated to let everyone know. everytime. instead of just contributing in an interesting way. But you have to explain your use of oxymoron above. Are you asserting "political article" is an oxymoron? or "current events" is an oxymoron? Or are you trying to say the two things equal each other, which they don't.

girls, yr both pretty

Copy, paste and add a little half-baked revision of what you've just read.
After that: You're ready to save the world, my friend.

what the person above me said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gccfz...ature=related# [to express my surprise]

and if you prefer a more mellow, serious version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq_AXxJgFmM#


but obviously....

Apologies if my interpretation was erroneous - I was inferring that current events are political (that is to say, current events are not not political); that is, by stating 'This isn't a political article' and then immediately following it with 'this is current events' lead me to the impression that you wished to suggest that 'politicle articles' and 'current events' were, if not in opposition, then at least distinct. I was using oxymoron in the sense applied to phrases of rhetoric rather than compound noun-adjective words. That is to say, that by negating the object of the first sentence you wished to emphasise the assertion of the second. My assertion, in turn, is pretty much in common with SFAD, as it happens - politics isn't something that happens in history books, it's happening now, and the article SFAD posted is one such instance of this.

I can't really apologise if you feel my contribution frivolous; we're left with a world of non-sequiturs here because anyone can assert that they think someone else's contribution to 'the board' is 'pointless' or another such synonym. Mud-slinging is a laugh for a while, but it can easily descend into a pissing-competition (I'm well aware of the irony of my saying that, thanks).

I (second person plural) by no means respond to all the threads that don't interest me. Clearly, I have some vague semblance of a life that doesn't involve me sitting in front of the Sonic Youth forum writing 'this thread is cock' over and over again.

This is the problem - I'm generally interested in what SFAD has to say when he isn't getting over-excited about some article he's just read that he compulsively copies and pastes into a thread. I rarely agree with it, but there's that human touch that I can be bothered to trawl through. I may be arrogant, but I can trust myself to read up on political events that interest me (and, lest we forget, no-one will ever read everything).

sorry for trying to expand yr world, but this is the 21st century, and that is the whole damned point of human communication to begin with. as it has been said, if you are not interested in the news I spread or the opinions I express, why are you keen to through in yr

all the time? maybe it is because you are more interested then you thought?

I'vde got nothing against threads with a political theme. I actually find them interesting. It's the style that some of them take which I find so annoying. I want to know what people HERE think about stuff, not what a journalist from the BBC, Reuters, CNN, etc. has to say. By simply pasting up chunks of news items it seems to assume that I rely on a messageboard dedicated to some alternative rock band in order to keep informed of world events, when in actual fact, I read the newspapers and watch enough TV news to consider myself reasonable aware of what's taking place. What I DON'T need is some rastafarian with issues about his own skin colour, getting all creative with his cut and paste in a bid to convince me that babylon's about to fall.

I'm sure I come across as even more of a mindless cretin to someone like suchfriends... with posts like this. All's I can say is that he's probably right. But unlike him, I see this as a forum for communication, not indoctrination.

Peace niggas

ouch! all I did here was post the news.. jesus you people are sour!

Where is the love to be found? Wont someone tell me?
cause life, sweet life, must be somewhere to be found -
Instead of concrete jungle jungle jungle!
Where the living is harder!

no gnus is good gnus

so them say. what makes me laugh is that no person other then me is so thoroughly analyzed and scandalized on this board, for what? posting the news? talking about some controversial global issues? If you look at my threads and posts that shit accounts for 10-20% of what I post ,http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sea...0&pp=30&page=2 the rest is cultural/musical/artistic/personal threads that have nothing to do with controversy, and yet....





sometimes I wonder what is up with the people here, why do some of you give so much a shit about me giving a shit about things that you clearly dont give a shit about?

"Saint Stephen with a rose
In and out of the garden he goes
Country garland in the wind and the rain
Wherever he goes the people all complain"

Personally the thing about copying and pasting an article is not something that I have a problem per se, it's more the continuous preaching - instead of stimulating debate - on what is ultimately a medium that doesn't offer any tools for tactics and actions that would effectively follow up the preaching itself.

This is not to say that tesla69 or SFAD shouldn't post whatever passed through their mind on a section of this forum that has much less noble garbage on it than what they post anyway, it's just that you can't really complain if these threads get targeted by anyone who:

1 - Doesn't want to chat about any of those issues at the time of posting.

2 - Would love to follow up on what's been thrown at them, but ultimately are confonted by whatever pollutes a thread that isn't able to invite posters into it who are able to moderate it (i.e. with intelligent and stimulating points) because that's generally the very nature of how communication works on public forums' threads: fragmented, unpredictably stagnant and schizophrenically paced, all things that contribute to making a political debate on here time consuming/wasting.

and then again, some people just hate to be slapped with reality