Who is the Virgin Mary (to you?)
 

I thought I'd ask what you folks thought about the Virgin Mary and what she means/signifies to y'all (since it is Virgin Mary Mother of God commemoration day)

To those of the Protestant tradition, she can be a nobody and border on a demonic goddess

To those of the Orthodox/Catholic tradition she is the mother of us all

to those atheists/agnostics perhaps she is nothing at all but a fairy tale..

I have always enjoyed the many perspectives expressed and explained and discussed in other religious/cultural threads in the past such as necklaces/crosses/amulets etc, or Protestant/Catholic/or Orthodox? and my Haile Selassie threads..

go.

for mexicans the Virgin represents their very selves, a kind self-reflective cultural symbol, trope and source of identity. In Ethiopia it is VERY similar, in fact I'd say that Mexico and Ethiopia probably are the two most devoted civilizations to the honor of the Virgin Mary in the world (and considering the veneration of the Italians or the Spanish or the Polish etc etc that is saying something)

For me, the Virgin is the same. the embodies the divine in humanity, she is a human, flaws and all, who God chose to dwell upon, therefore she comes to symbolize the very serenity of patience, faith and self-control. Further, she is definitely a source of cultural identity, a kind of rallying flag for folks to gather behind around. She is painted on every street corner here in LA, I have grown up with the Virgin as a basic element of my day-to-day existence. Though I was raised baptist, and we vehemently opposed honoring Our Lady in ANY way..

I have grown into Orthodoxy and found my way around a Hail Mary prayer or two since then ;)

The Virgin is the Ark of the Covenant, where the two tablets inscribed by the very finger of God are placed, which is to say the twin ovaries which bore the living Savior, touched by god, the Ark being her womb, the tablets of Moses being the Ovaries which contained the egg which would become humanity's salvation and grace.

She is the Burning Bush, which was burning in the fire of God and yet was not consumed, just as she bore the Son of God, the Limitless Fire of the True Godhead, and yet even in that little body was not burned or singed in the slightest!

She is the Censur, which bore the blessed coals and incense of our Savior.

She is Jacob's ladder which ascended into Heaven itself

Who knows? Just some random girl that people probably wrote a bunch of lies about?
*stands back as the thread grows to 500 pages of debates*

Christian views of Mary

 

 

The oldest-known image of Mary depicts her nursing the Infant Jesus. Catacomb of Priscilla, Rome (2nd century)


Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran, as well as some Methodist Christians venerate Mary. This veneration especially takes the form of prayer for intercession with her Son, Jesus Christ. The Hail Mary prayer is one such example. Additionally it includes composing poems and songs in Mary's honor, painting icons or carving statues of her, and conferring titles on Mary that reflect her position among the saints. She is also one of the most highly venerated saints in both the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches; and several major feast days of the liturgical year are devoted to her.
Virgin and Child. Wall painting from the catacombs, Rome (4th century).

By contrast, certain documents of the Second Vatican Council, such as chapter VIII of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium [41] describe Mary as higher than all other created beings, even angels: "she far surpasses all creatures, both in heaven and on earth"; but still in the final analysis, a created being, solely human – not divine – in her nature. On this showing, Catholic traditionalists would argue that there is no conflation [42] of the human and divine levels in their veneration of Mary.
The major origin and impetus of veneration of Mary comes from the Christological controversies of the early church – many debates denying in some way the divinity or humanity of Jesus Christ. So not only would one side affirm that Jesus was indeed God, but would assert the conclusion that Mary was "Mother of God", although some Protestants prefer to use the term "God-bearer".[citation needed] Catholics and Protestants agree however, that "Mother of God" is not intended to imply that Mary in any way gave Jesus his divinity.
Both Catholics and Orthodox, and especially Anglicans, make a clear distinction between such veneration (which is also due to the other saints) and adoration which is due to God alone. (The term worship is used by some theologians to subsume both sacrificial worship and worship of praise, e.g. Orestes Brownson in his book Saint Worship. The word "worship", while commonly used in place of "adoration" in the modern English vernacular, strictly speaking implies nothing more than the acknowledgement of "worth-ship" or worthiness, and thus means no more than the giving of honor where honor is due (e.g. the use of "Your Worship" as a form of address to judges in certain English legal traditions). "Worship" has never been used in this sense in Catholic literature when referring to the veneration of the Blessed Virgin). Mary, they point out, is not divine, and has only such powers to help as are granted to her by God in response to her prayers. Such miracles as may occur through Mary's intercession are ultimately the result of God's love and omnipotence. Traditionally, Catholic theologians have distinguished three forms of honor: latria, due only to God, and usually translated by the English word adoration; hyperdulia, accorded only to the Blessed Virgin Mary, usually translated simply as veneration; and dulia, accorded to the rest of the saints, also usually translated as veneration. The Orthodox distinguish between worship and veneration but do not use the "hyper"-veneration terminology when speaking of the Theotokos. Protestants tend to consider "dulia" too similar to "latria".

 

making the Annunciation to Mary. Painting by El Greco (1575)


The surge in the veneration of Mary in the High Middle Ages owes some of its initial impetus to Bernard of Clairvaux. Bernard expanded upon Anselm of Canterbury's role in transmuting the sacramental ritual Christianity of the Early Middle Ages into a new, more personally held, faith, with the life of Christ as a model and a new emphasis on the Virgin Mary. In opposition to the rationalist approach to divine understanding that the schoolmen adopted, Bernard preached an immediate faith, in which the intercessor was the Virgin Mary; "the Virgin that is the royal way, by which the Savior comes to us." Bernard played the leading role in the development of the Virgin cult, which is one of the most important manifestations of the popular piety of the 12th century. In early medieval thought the Virgin Mary had played a minor role, and it was only with the rise of emotional Christianity in the 11th century that she became the prime intercessor for humanity with the deity. (Cantor 1993 p 341)

The major figures of the Reformation honored Mary. Martin Luther said Mary is "the highest woman", that "we can never honour her enough", that "the veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart", and that Christians should "wish that everyone know and respect her". John Calvin said, "It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." Zwingli said, "I esteem immensely the Mother of God", and, "The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow". Thus the idea of respect and high honour was not rejected by the first Protestants; but they criticized the Catholics for blurring the line, between high admiration of the grace of God wherever it is seen in a human being, and religious service given to another creature. The medieval Catholic practices of celebrating saints' days, making intercessory requests addressed to Mary and other departed saints, petitioning Mary for grace and protection, and various cultic elements such as the bearing of scapulars they have always considered to be idolatry. Protestantism usually follows the reformers in rejecting the practice of directly addressing Mary and other saints in prayers of admiration or petition, as part of their religious worship of God. Protestants do not call the respect or honor that they may have for Mary veneration because of the special religious significance that this term has in the Catholic practice.
Following the Magnificat in the Gospel of Luke, Protestants have always acknowledged that Mary is "blessed among women,"[Lk 1:42] but they do not agree that Mary is to be given cultic veneration. She is considered to be an outstanding example of a life dedicated to God. Indeed the word that she uses to describe herself in Luke 1:38 (usually translated as "bond-servant" or "slave")[43] refers to someone whose will is consumed by the will of another–in this case Mary's will is consumed by God's. Rather than granting Mary any kind of "dulia", Protestants note that her role in scripture seems to diminish – after the birth of Jesus she is hardly mentioned. From this it may be said that her attitude paralleled that of John the Baptist who said "He must become greater; I must become less."[John 3:30]
[edit] Roman Catholic view

See also: Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church

 

 

[edit] Joint Anglican-Roman Catholic document

On May 16, 2005, the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches issued a joint 43-page statement, "Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ" (also known as the Seattle Statement) on the role of the Virgin Mary in Christianity as a way to uphold ecumenical cooperation despite differences over other matters. The document was released in Seattle, Washington, by Alexander Brunett, the local Catholic Archbishop, and Peter Carnley, Anglican Archbishop of Perth, Western Australia, co-chairmen of the Anglican—Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC).
The joint document is said to seek a common understanding to help both churches agree on the theological reasoning behind the Catholic dogmas, despite Anglicans not accepting the papal authority that underpins them. Carnley has reportedly said that Anglican concerns that dogmas about Mary are not provable by scripture would "disappear", with the document discussing that Anglicans would stop opposition to Roman Catholic teachings of the Immaculate Conception (defined in 1854) and the Assumption of Mary (defined in 1950) as being "consonant" with the biblical teachings.
Statue of Santa Maria Assunta, in Attard, Malta

 

by Carlo Dolci, 1670


The "Blessed Virgin Mary", sometimes shortened to "The Blessed Virgin" or "The Virgin Mary" is a traditional title specifically used by Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics, and some others to describe Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.
The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary was formally declared to be dogma by Pope Pius XII in 1950. Pope Pius XII states in Munificentissimus Deus: "We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith." This is an example of an invocation of papal infallibility.
The dogma does not state if Mary's assumption occurred before or after any physical death. As stated by Ludwig Ott (Bk. III, Pt. 3, Ch. 2, §6) "the fact of her death is almost generally accepted by the Fathers and Theologians, and is expressly affirmed in the Liturgy of the Church", to which he adduces a number of helpful citations, and concludes that "for Mary, death, in consequence of her freedom from original sin and from personal sin, was not a consequence of punishment of sin. However, it seems fitting that Mary's body, which was by nature mortal, should be, in conformity with that of her Divine Son, subject to the general law of death." In keeping with the historical consensus of the Church, Pius XII himself almost certainly rejected the notion of Mary's "immortality" (the idea that she never suffered death), preferring the more widely accepted understanding that her assumption took place after her physical death. The Feast of the Assumption is celebrated on August 15.
In a less dogmatic context, the Roman Catholic tradition also has a more pronounced emphasis on Acts of Reparation and the Sorrows of Mary and a number of prayers for this purpose appear in the official Raccolta Catholic

prayer book. [edit] Eastern Orthodox view

In the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic and Oriental Orthodox traditions, the Ever-Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, died, after having lived a holy life. Eastern Orthodox do not believe in the immaculate conception, with the exception of some Old Believers, on the contrary believing that she was the best example of a human lifestyle. The surviving apostles were present at and conducted her funeral. However Thomas was delayed and arrived a few days later. He said that he would not believe this had happened unless he saw the body of Mary. Peter expressed dismay that Thomas continued to doubt what the other apostles told him. Upon opening the tomb, Thomas revealed that he had witnessed the absent body of the Theotokos being taken to heaven by angels. This holy mystery is commemorated in the Church's iconography and hymnogrpahy. The Eastern Orthodox and Greek-Catholics celebrate this event on August 15. The Oriental Orthodox celebrate it on August 22. The feast day of the Dormition ("falling asleep") of the Theotokos is preceded by a two week fasting period.
[edit] Anglican view

 

 

Assumption statue, 1808 by Mariano Gerada, Ghaxaq, Malta


Mary's special position within God's purpose of salvation as "God bearer" (theotokos) is recognised in a number of ways by some Anglican Christians. The Church affirms in the historic creeds that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, and celebrates the feast days of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple. This feast is called in older prayer books the Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary on 2 February. The Annunciation of our Lord to the Blessed Virgin on March 25 was from before the time of Bede until the 18th century New Year's Day in England. The Annunciation is called the "Annunciation of our Lady" in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. Anglicans also celebrate in the Visitation of the Blessed Virgin on May 31, though in some provinces the traditional date of July 2 is kept. The feast of the St. Mary the Virgin is observed on the traditional day of the Assumption, August 15. The Nativity of the Blessed Virgin is kept on September 8.
The Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary is kept in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, on December 8. In certain Anglo-Catholic parishes this feast is called the Immaculate Conception. Again, the Assumption of Mary is believed in by most Anglo-Catholics, but is considered a pious opinion by moderate Anglicans. Protestant minded Anglicans reject the celebration of these feasts.
Prayer with the Blessed Virgin Mary varies according to churchmanship. Low Church Anglicans rarely invoke the Blessed Virgin except in certain hymns, such as the second stanza of Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones. Following the 19th century Oxford Movement, Anglo-Catholics frequently pray the rosary, the Angelus, Regina Caeli, and other litanies and anthems of Our Lady. The Anglican Society of Mary maintains chapters in many countries. The purpose of the society is to foster devotion to Mary among Anglicans.

[edit] Lutheran view

Main article: Lutheran Marian theology
Despite Martin Luther's harsh polemics against his Roman Catholic opponents over issues concerning Mary and the saints, theologians appear to agree that Luther adhered to the Marian decrees of the ecumenical councils and dogmas of the church. He held fast to the belief that Mary was a perpetual virgin and the Theotokos or Mother of God.[44] Special attention is given to the assertion, that Luther some three-hundred years before the dogmatization of the Immaculate Conception by Pope Pius IX in 1854, was a firm adherent of that view. Others maintain that Luther in later years changed his position on the Immaculate Conception, which, at that time was undefined in the Church, maintaining however the sinlessness of Mary throughout her life.[45] Regarding the Assumption of Mary, he stated, that the Bible did not say anything about it. Important to him was the belief that Mary and the saints do live on after death.[46] "Throughout his career as a priest-professor-reformer, Luther preached, taught, and argued about the veneration of Mary with a verbosity that ranged from childlike piety to sophisticated polemics. His views are intimately linked to his christocentric theology and its consequences for liturgy and piety."[47] Luther, while revering Mary, came to criticize the "Papists" for blurring the line, between high admiration of the grace of God wherever it is seen in a human being, and religious service given to another creature. He considered the Roman Catholic practice of celebrating saints' days and making intercessory requests addressed especially to Mary and other departed saints to be idolatry.[48]

not true. even amongst believers there are plenty of lies and deception. In Ethiopia there is schizm because some Bishops are teaching the Roman doctrine that both the Virgin and Christ were both born of Immaculate Conception, where as the Orthodox teaching has always been that she was born of lawful, sexual intercourse by her parents, and only Jesus was virgin-born. In fact, it is a crucial article of Orthodox faith to affirm her carnal birth, because the fundamental teaching of the Church is that from Adam unto Mary, a pearl was placed in the seed of men, and essentially the ENTIRE Old testament is a narrative of the family struggles and geneological drama which culminated in the birth of the Virgin. It is very simple, if her parents did not have sex, they could not have transferred the pearl which had existed since Adam, which is literally the DNA of Jesus Christ.

A person worth of very little interest.
Simply because the gospels doesn't report much of what she did, and nothing of what she said.

Thus she became a subject for myths, fantasies, theories etc.
Why no one gives a damn about Joseph, I have no ideas.

When I was 20 I would have said she was a symbol of rape. Raped by god, and then man raped as a result (if you believe the "story").

When I was 24 I would have stated that I didn't care.

Now, I just think she might have been a woman that actually existed (maybe), but has this misfortune of being carved in history by fictitious bullshit. But really...I still don;t care that much.

You don't get pregnant w/out the aid of dick. I doubt god has a dick. Does god need a dick? And even if he did, he's god...why would he wanna fuck anyone on this planet? If he did want to, I'm sure he'd already fucked Eve...I mean, IF YA REALLY BELIEVE THIS SHIT....Eve had to be to most beautiful woman ever...'cause she was the first. Designed soley by god from the rib of Adam and not hand-me-down genetics.

People look retarded.

Women can get pregnant without a dick, nowadays. (thanks science..)

You, my friend, said it best.

Most of those that say you can still don't believe in evolution...so go figure.

Mary is the Catholic Church's answer to the myriad earth mother/mother worship cults that have existed throughout human time.
It is only right to worship the female, for the female brings new life. the male does not. However, in patriarchal society and in severely patriarchal organized judeo/christian religion, where women are NOT allowed to be priests/talk to "god", but are also completely subjugated as secondary citizens, as crap leftover after the creation of MAN, as the tempters of MAN who essentially took humanity away from the grace of god in the garden of eden, Mary is the bone

Just as the early church (the seat of all that is wrong with christianity) co-opted the Mithras holiday/winter solstice to use as their messiah's "birthday", they co-opted the Goddess/Earth Mother by introducing a supposedly ALSO virgin born woman, who gave a virgin birth to the son of god. Neat trick. It has worked very well and helped kill all pagan competition.

In many countries worship of the Goddess/Mary continues with more furor than worshuip of god/Jeebus. Mexico being one example.

The Bible tells of a woman who was a virgin and gave birth. it tells nothing of her being born froma virgin herself, nor does it say that Joseph, her HUSBAND, did not fuck her brains out soon after, and had more children.

many aprocryphal writings talk of jesus' brothers and sisters. mary got that pussy waxed.

To me Mary is a woman to look up to in the bible. Most every other strong person in the bible (besides miss magdelane) was a man. This gives the modern woman or even the old days woman someone to look up to as an example of how god would like us to be as a mother, wife, and role model in society. I don't know if the story of the virgin birth is real or not. I really don't care. I do believe that she gave birth to the man that was closer to god than any other human who walked this earth. How he cameto be is not a concern to me. The use of the word "virgin" infers moral cleanliness and good character to her. I am sure Jesus was not her only child. It is a story of how a WOMAN not a MAN brought forth a man that would forever change history. Gods way of showing us that behind every good man is a strong woman.

the new testimant talks about his siblings too. the catholic church was real good at pr.

Noah's wife must have been pretty bitchin

a plastic doll that a bunch of coo coo's pray to

I don't believe that all stories in the bible can be taken as absolute truth. The true message is what you read in between the lines sometimes as with a great song.

TO her as some think. They are praying that she will pray for them because there is a strong belief that a prayer from a saint your behalf will be listened to even more. Prayer in numbers.

that's all well and dandy, except for the fact that she's a plastic doll ;):D;)

[EDIT: .... that's made in China]

mine is a steel medallion made in italy so there

what if, like most of Jesus' contacts in the Bible, Mary was a poor, outcast, marginal , "working girl" a la mary magdalene, and they called her "the Virgin" because her poonanny was just exquisitely tight?


ohhhh the blasphemesss.....

Jesus was a non-corporeal entity!

ha


for real though, maybe it was a C-section?

I don't believe in a God that speaks in metaphors. I dont believe in a God that speaks at all. I don;t believe in a god that is aware of my individual existence. I don't believe in a god that is aware of anyone's individual existence. I don't believe in a god that wishes to guide or help anyone through anything.

If, if, if there is an afterlife, if there is a god...the absolute only thing that makes sense to my (very feeble/weak/fucked...)mind is a collective conciousness. Something we all become a part of after we become plant + animal food. Something that isn't even worth the time of day to think about because it's something that goes far beyond anyone's understanding of absolutely anything. And I'm not even sayin' I believe that....

I'm a creature of procreaction. I enjoy enjaculating any chance I get...wether alone or w/ someone else. I'm a creature of excess...I enjoy booze and booty and then being left alone.

Heaven, if there is a such thing, to me is looking at my previously deceased friends by my side, and saying "holy shit I'm not too drunk to realize i just witnessed Ron Asheton ask to bum a smoke from Jimi". < that was a joke, me being an idiot. I don't believe that.

I'm a total. fuckin. moron.

I know I will become grass fertilizer. The maggots will love me and need me and lust after my decaying body more than anyone did in this waking/breathin' life.

If I gotta sould, I hope to meet it one day...but I doubt I will.

They say "gotd was just ready to take him home", god's idea of taking my friend was not by throwing him outta car window. He wasn't done. I hope to see 'em again one day, to give em a big hug an soak his shirt in tears and tell em I missed em, but shit...in my mind...doesnt work like that.

If i'm lucky, well become a collective concious...but...we won't be aware of it.

Don't let a loved ones death be a reason to not believe. My momma was taken too earlly. Deathwas her release and caused me to have the convictions I do now. I think heaven is a combined conciousness. Its not about the individual. A new existance. I do think we will meet there. Ill be waiting to see u

It sounds nice.

I'm just not so sure.

Sway, why do you not turn your post into a musical?

is that a compliment? an insult? a metaphor?

lawwwwwdy.

doood.....that's the most awesomly disgusting thing anyone can say about Jesus and his mum.

Faith is noteasily found. Its a long road to travel:)

No doubt the girl existed but I'm not a very religious person so I think she might have been just some random girl whose life has been a bit embellished by some writers.

Advice. :)

W/ an exception of my "i wanna be ron asheton" bluesy bullshit"...All my music is influenced by such frustrations.

My Dad was raised Catholic, my Mom Lutheran. I wasn't really raised as any specific denomination.

I sort of see her as a symbol of fragility, bravery, and motherhood.

I see Joseph as important too. He's a symbol of faith and fatherhood. He trusted that she was a virgin. Dude could have had her stoned if he wanted.

but that is not true at ALL! There are dozens of gospel narratives (in the various Synaxariums, Missal prayer books, catechism texts, law books, and also the so-called lost and/or apocryphal gospels) that only the Protestant tradition hold as non-canonical, where as the Orthodox and Catholics hold them to be as divine as the so-called "Bible" The authority of the Canon is a relative term, hence the purpose of this thread, to have a nice, open discussion.

I think the most common thing I see on these kinds of threads is people (even who don't believe in it) turning to the Bible for the answer, but that is not necessarily appropriate, in fact is just baggage from the Protestant movement which was not religious at all but rather economical (after all, who wanted to pay taxes to the Church anyways ;) ) Christianity is not entirely limited by the Bible, it is a rich legacy of culture and tradition found in oral histories, paintings, architecture, hymn/song, and many other Church books and writings that are "extra-biblical" and yet by no means unauthoritative. There are authentic Church letters and Writings that are in fact older than any New Testament copies..

Further, in the New Testament itself both Jesus and the Apostles specifically mention for folks not only to follow the "bible" but to adhere to the traditions and teachings which are received from the past.

And in Catholic Saint Joseph is a patron saint of many churches, hospitals, orphanages etc etc

I completely knew someone would post this, I was even meditating about it during the Mass earlier today.

True, in some aspects, the Virgin Mary is indeed a symbol of male domination/oppression over women, culminating in the most offensive act of this male dominance, rape. Further the Virgin's submission to the act and the subsequent child can be interpreted by some as being symbolic of male dominance over women in culture, politics, sexuality etc etc In respects this may be true, but that is the result of certain groups who have used and exploited the imagery and symbolism of the Virgin Mary to use it towards these ends. The symbol itself is not necessarily intertwined with this concept. After all, who said the Bald Eagle has to be the symbol of American dominance over the world? And yet that is what America has used it for, to paste it across the world as an image and tangible symbol of its oppressive hold over the world...
And by the way, yes, in the Church we have many hymns which directly speak of the significance of the Virgin having been the most beautiful and attractive of women (spiritually of course ;) ) to have attracted the attention of God.


how expectedly freudian of you, but yes, I would very much agree that men orient themselves around the Virgin in the same way men orient themselves around fertility goddesses of the past..

I see you paid attention well at catechism, you know your shit, and thats saying something, you know I teach that shit?

In the Church we do not necessarily believe that Mary is the olden time fertility goddesses, but we do acknowledge that being a women, having the creative forces in harmony, that God could have only used a woman to create God incarnate, for that is precisely the mechanism in which God(s) always did such.

The Virgin Mary in early Church symbolism was Universally the Ark of the Covenant, Our Lady Sion, who held the Tablets of Stone and was the Dwelling Place of the God-head, just as the Word of God (Jesus Christ) came incarnate of the egg in the two ovaries (tablets of stone inscribed with the DNA of God/Jesus) birthed the Savior in the Womb, which is the Ark itself. See it is a bit more theologically complicated then simply fertility goddesses, who are the source of creativity, in this instance, she is not the source of any or every or all creativity, rather ALL women are such in God(s) mechanisms, but the Virgin represents a specific junction, a time and place where the Divine interacted with the Human.

You are deeper than the waves at redondo beach my brotha, I always enjoy your contributions..

Interesting enough, to flip on its head the theme of male oppression expressed above, what about the very fact that the images and veneration and prayers and hymns to and in honor of the Virgin exist? Does not that by its very nature EMPOWER women? It gives them a symbol to identify with and further cements their place in the community and the institution. My priest flipped it on me like that one day when we were talking about women being oppressed by Ethiopian Church culture and he laughed at me and said, "Who do you think lights all those candles early in the morning?" Just because the women are priests standing up wearing costumes, does not mean they are not playing integral and critical roles in the Church, albeit a bit more behind the scenes. We all play our parts in the world, even if they seem small in comparison to others. Just because the President has a better job than me, does not inherently make him better in the society then me, in fact if anything, being the Priest can backfire, the Priest gets all the static whether he did anything or not, where as the quiet women cooking, tending to the children and maintaining all the religious/cultural festivals (in my Church the women organize and orchestrate EVERY feast, celebration, baptismal luncheons, funerary wakes, Saint's days etc etc) rarely get static for anything, after all, it isn't polite to back-talk your mothers

good thread y'all, much thanks for taking it rather seriously :)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ann ashtray again.



Very Very Very true. I think it is the way we have embellished her that is so revealing of her significance and impact on the world.


brother, that was simply beautiful words. much thanks and love.

well i asked a priest once... no good.

but apparently he said jesus was conceived without sex (penetration) it had nothing to do with not popping on the way out.

poor woman, maybe she got to experience it later?

you know virgin in the sense of not experiencing sex, not in the sense of keeping your hymen (which many people do by the way) or pledging to marry a virgin and getting it up the ass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

"in rare cases there are mothers with an intact hymen"

And also, what knox said. Many virgins do not have intact hymens.