Makes me sad...
 

I really hate saying it, I've been fighting it off for some time, but I feel must say that if Sonic Youth are going to progress on their current trajectory, they should break up. They are by all means my favorite band still around today, but out of their last four albums, including RR, the only one that's had me excited at all when I listened to it for the first time (or on subsequent listens) is "Sonic Nurse". On that album there were again interesting textures, STRONG, not-phoned-in jams, dark-and-felt melodies ("I Love You Golden Blue", which I ADORE), and some actually rockin' tunes. NYCGF had it's free-jazz moments which were nice, reminded me of good Coltrane or Ra; Murray Street had the epic and beautiful "Sympathy...", and Rather Ripped has a few three-star jams...but in general, these three albums are pretty ridiculous coming from Sonic Youth. Am I saying they have to constantly be noisy? No, not at all. Am I saying they can't change? Nope. Three of my favorite SY albums are DDN, Washing Machine, and Bad Moon Rising, which all sound absolutely nothing alike. What I'm getting at is that they're getting too, um, safe. I can understand the desire to write good pop tunes, but the thing is, they already did that! "Unwind", "Teenage Riot", "100%", "Sunday", etc...all great pop songs. But they're so incredibly ADVENTUROUS at the same time. And I guess that's what I'm missing. Yes, I own the SYRs, and I listen to them and enjoy them. But they didn't used to have to syphon all their interesting and experimental stuff into side-releases. The only thing that, for me personally, is interesting on "Ripped" is "Or", but it's completely marred by Thurston's ridiculous in-the-tour-bus scribblings. I'm sure this is offensive, and it hurts me more to say it than it could possibly hurt anyone to read it. I guess, for me, it's just that I didn't get into SY because they wrote good songs. I got into them because they scared the hell out of me with their ideas of what songs could be, what "pretty" could be, what "rockin'" could be, what "sad" could sound like. I don't need a standard indie rock album from them. And even Sonic Nurse is dangerously close to that for me (with the exception of "Golden..."). The only reason I have Ripped is because I got it for free with my ticket to their CB's show at the beginning of the tour (which was a complete let down, by the way. I didn't want to hear the "hits" of yesteryear (Schiz, or Teenage Riot, etc.), but I did want to be given something more than a set that consisted entirely of their new album (which I don't like) in order). In the end, I just worry that they've gotten complacent. At least NYCGF wasn't very good because it was an experiment that didn't quite work out. I'd take that over an album of safe, MOR rock songs any day.

T

That's it - get it off your chest.

I was thinking this earlier when going through all my Murray Street-era stuff. That was the last time they were pretty tight and adventurous, able to shift from all different kinds of shit.

Not to say I haven't loved RR or Nurse- I'd give them 5 stars anyday, but they are fading out a little.

Teenage mid-life crisis anyone?

Implying I'm a teenager? I'm not. I got into SY when I was 10 (1992) when I heard "100%". So...I'm 24. Maybe not as old as someone who was seeing them at the Mudd Club or Danceteria in 1984, but not a teenager. And besides, my favorite albums of theirs are the 5 they put out in the 80s (not counting s/t as an album) plus Washing Machine and A Thousand Leaves. I would imagine most people on this board who are teenagers right NOW got into SY after reading about Murray Street at Pitchfork, or maybe Spin or even Rolling Stone. I remember it driving me crazy when all those glowing reviews came out...

No, not really. No musical magazine or source got me into SY at all. I checked them out for myself, like everything else I love.

I can see where you are coming from, but to me it is all about phases with sonic youth.
no wave (sonic youth, confusion and to a large extent BMR)
noise rock (evol, sister, daydream antion, goo, dirty)
free form experimentation (EJST&NS, SYR's, NYC ghost)
and now we are in a phase where sonic youth are exploring their melodies (wahsing, murray, nurse, ripped)

sonic youth ahs always been about the confluence of noise and beauty. they always had and have both working, sometimes noise to a greater degree (BMR, confusion), sometimes melody to a greater degree (EJST&NS, Murray, Nurse) and I feel rather ripped is their most melodic album to date. if any single indie rock band had released RR other than sonic youth the indie underground would be salivating over it's tasty sounds and melodies and hooks, YES HOOKS, sonic youth can write HOOKS!

daydream nation is the masterpiece it is because it amalgamated everything sonic youth love to do, melodies, noise, experimentation, into one complete package.

thank goodness sonic youth does not repeat themselves.

I just do not see how people can complain they are softening up when their SYR series takes expereimental rock to heights (or lows, depending on how you like them) that noone ever has done before.

and on ripped and nurse and murray they are exploring actual songcraft. most of the murray songs were written by thurston on a n acoustic guitar. that is sonic youth experimenting. enjopy it for what it is, rather ripped is afantastic rocking melodic album, and yes, it is packed to the brim with TASTEFULLY DONE NOISE, dig? the noise serves the melody in this al bum's case.

in bad moon rising the melody served the noise splendor.

I am not saying people do not have a right to dislike output buy this, the single greatest band in the history of music, but to lay such vehement ill sentiment upon these, my gods of rock, gods of skronk, it hurts me a lot. I don;t know. it really does. it is like a patriot gets when someone puts down their motherland.

I think rather ripped is actually more subversive to mainstream rock than most of what they ahve done in the past. it shows that you can use sonic skronk and sonic tunings to create BEAUTY, straight up BEAUTY, and I love it

I have listened to RR every day for weeks now. I find skronk hidden in there, nuggets of sonic skronk to tease my ears and please my brain.

long live sonic youth

I guess I would say the converse...that if it were an album by anyone else no one would much care for it, not that they'd be salivating. I know if it had been by anyone else I probably wouldn't have even taken the free copy. I totally agree that there are different phases of SY and that's what I love. I wouldn't want them to just do a second version of Evol anymore either. But I guess, to me, it seems like they're not exploring their songcraft, they're just sounding more and more like tons of other bands. That's what this phase seems more like to me: the "let's see what it's like to be a generic indie band" phase. "Sleepin' Around"? Come on. Weak. "Jams Run Free"? Nice, but sounds pretty much just like something off of Wowee Zowee minus the kookiness. Like I said, if it hurts to hear this stuff about your fave band, it hurts me to say it about mine too. "A Thousand Leaves" was absolutely GORGEOUS, but was still really really interesting, and completely unique. It really captured a feeling for me, whereas Ripped just kinda captures SY sounding generic. That's a phase that doesn't interest me (from any band, let alone SY).

When they did NYC Ghosts and Flowers (which I didn't get into at the time, admittedly) I kind of fell out of love with them, I thought they would never make another great record. Then they did Murray Street, THEN they did Sonic Nurse which I adored. So it does go in circles. I didn't like RR as much either (although I do like it a lot) and maybe they will run out of steam now, but I hope not. You never know..

Not for me. I learned about them from watching this cartoon.
http://www.paperrad.org/animations/graffiti.html . Watch the whole thing, it's pretty good.

woah what the hell was all that about????
its pretty kool, but strange very strange!

I agree with everything you say.

badger sums it up, it's the great modulating wave of Sonicness..sometimes it's crazy..sometimes it's a little more level...but like the modulation of an MXR blue box...it's just kinda random...but good :)

Yeah, the problem is that they haven't put out a great album since 1998. By great, I'm including adventurous as a key characteristic. This is a loooooooong wave we're on here.

If they broke up, I think i'd cry.

Liz, do you really like their recent stuff? In that case, it makes sense that you would be really upset. For me it would be like ending something formally that, in spirit, ended 8 years ago.

I'm a teenager but I've been into SY for ages and I actually dislike the new stuff. You will find your guesstimation is quite the contrary of most of our users. In fact, it is mostly teenagers saying how boring RR is. The older board members(Rob, Diaper, etc.) are the ones defending it in barely legible sentences.

Yeah, that is super weird. I'm pretty young I suppose for an SY fan (I really have no idea what the average age is, but given how long they've been around) but to me it's all about their 80s material and WM and 1000L. Not a huge fan of Goo or Dirty, though Dirty has some great stuff (JC is one of my faves of theirs, probably top 10). What's your all time favorite two albums of theirs, Hayden?

I think the main thing that irks me is people just defending it because of its hooks or it's catchiness. Most decent pop has both of those things in sundry amounts. Who gives a shit?

My favorites are as follows:
CIS/KYI
BMR
Daydream Nation
Murray Street
Sister
EVOL
1000 Leaves

With the exception of Murray Street's presence and Washing Machine's absence, nice.

Yeah it is! It's an interesting way to come upon Sonic Youth though. I watched it with my brother and he was like "haha, it says sonic youth for no reason". And I was all "what's sonic youth?". So he told me it was a band so I checked it out.

I think RR is their best album since Goo personally, but it seems that's a pretty minority view. Sure, it uses very traditional structures (much as Goo did), but there's a lot of interesting stuff happening within that. I think its a well focussed statement.
Of course, its no Confusion... or Bad Moon..., but then again, what is?

Wow, Inhuman. I have to say, that's the best SY introduction you can possibly get.

And in response to the original post, I think everything you said is prefectly valid, except the career advice. They should not break up just because some fans think it would suit their musical needs. While everyone is entitled to their opinions (I liked RR, but not Murray Street or Sonic Nurse at all), they're the band, and they'll break up when and if they want to. Our opinions should not effect that. That's why they're legendary - They play what they want, regardless of how it affects their image or career. They may not be playing what we want them to, but oh well. It's their music, and they'll play it. That's why I like them. They don't sell out.

I put Murray Street on last night around midnight just to hear Sympathy for the Strawberry and after hearing the first notes of The Empty Page, I ended up listening to the whole album. I was planning on sleeping, but I spent my time just listening to it in my bed. I have had the same moments with all their albums.

what do you want? sy to come out and give another evol or daydream. its not gonna happen guys!!!!! rr aint a great sy record but its still pretty good. its not half as bad as experimental anyway

im starting to agree.

if even they made another daydream nation it would be like "gah! guys, stop while your ahead".

so its not that RR is bad (ive only listened to half) it just seems they are milking their career for more than its worth.

Balls

first of all: I REALLY don't think they should break up!

I like Rather Ripped, but I deffinately think it has a weak point. All Music describes the albums as sounding like all radio-edits, and I think that's spot on. It's kinda like if you made an entire album out of the radio-edit of Sunday - still damn cool - but it would really be nice to have some more experimental moments. There are exceptions (Turqouise Boy, Pink Steam and to some extent Rats) and even some songs that are probably cooler with this more sparse treatment (Reena) but some of the tracks just scream for more noise! Come on, if Or had been on any other Sonic album it would deffinately have a 10 minute noise ending. Even Rats could do, with another burst of white noise. All that said, I think it's a kick ass album - just not as exciting or adventorous as you'd expect from them.

i mean could you imagine if the beatles where still togather, playing tours? it just wouldnt be the same. regardless the beatles rule my soul and it doesnt downgrade them as a band, but they knew when it was time

sometimes you just gotta know when to call it quits

The Beatles are probably, for me, the only apt comparison...good call. They broke up right when they should have. If they had gone on to make complete albums of MOR early 70s rock, it would've been ridiculous, and completely tarnished their career (imagine if all of Paul's solo stuff had actually been Beatles stuff...some of it was okay but most of it was pretty hoaky. Would've been laughable after something like "Strawberry Fields" or "Helter Skelter"). They actually got a little too close to such stuff on Let It Be, and then broke up!

Regarding how they just "do what they want, and that's what makes them legendary": yes and no. It is that they always do what they want, but more importantly that they want to do is generally amazing. Rather Ripped is by no means amazing. Sorry. Take for example the breakdown on "Reena": we've heard better versions of that SAME EXACT THING at least 6 other times from them. Again, if what they REALLY WANTED TO DO, MAN was play racist California hardcore with ska inflections, would you say the same thing? I think it's easy to say it in the case of RR because it's such safe music.

Safe, and boring. Safe, and not beautiful. Safe, and not that rockin'. Safe doesn't have to be bad. It is in this case.

But it's not all about the fans, or even all about the music. When it comes to the question of them breaking up, it's all about them. It's their life and their happiness. If they're happy making shitty euro-pop dance beats from now on, it's their privilege to be happy doing it.

And putting racism into the mix completely changes the argument to an ethical debate. Music is not ethics.

Coco is growing up, they are aging gracefully and there are countless noise bands out there at this moment who would not have existed without Sonic Youth. In fact much of modern music would not exist without Sonic Youth. They have domesticated somewhat and this is the sound of thier sonic lives encapsulated and distilled within these 3 albums. We should be thankful at the very least that they still choose to make music from where it matters. The heart. Thankful that they have given us this opportunity to hear a differing viewpoint of the Sonic Youth sound. Which has always been what it was about, hasn't it? I remember Dirty being panned universally and criticized for being almost a parody of themselves. Truth is, from Goo onwards they've always been corporate ghosts, linking the mainstream and the underground. They incorporate hooks and melodies into their music and different viewpoints of noise and melody because that's what they've always done. What they always strove to do. My two cents.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

I feel grateful they're still making music. Thank you, Thurston, Lee, Kim & Steve. Thank you, Sonic Youth.

I'm not saying they should break up because I want them to. I'm saying they should break up because they don't really make good music anymore. Of course it's their right if they want to become a rote reggae band or a gang of yodeling mountaineers. Doesn't mean they should:) And yes, I am making a statement about what I think SY should do. And no, I don't think that violates what I love about them in the first place.

you would like something else then?
so find something else. start to explore if you're not satisfaied enough (did you allready). thats it. maybe it's time to check out some solo projects by members and you'll find what you're looking for.

e.g. this one:
http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=4309

There you go.

Yeh, that's what I was trying to get at. A lot of the music that's most interesting to me allows artists to appeal to a more mainstream audience by using "pop" structures, while maintaining depth for those who want to find it.
That is so much more difficult to do than an album's worth of white noise.
Rather Ripped is a good example of that.

I just keep saying it sonic nurse is a masterpiece and RR kinda suckt.
They shouldn't break up, Jim should just come back...