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Originally Posted by swa(y)
but really...refused, botch, etc. arent really hardcore. not in the sense that minor threat or SOA was hardcore.
its a different mentality, yeah, there are similiar elements, but the hardcore of the early to mid 80s allowed little room (there was some) for experimentation. "anti art" was actually a pretty common slogan desribing that era.
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Have you heard early Refused? It's hardcore. Their last album was branching out and making something more of the genre, hence the title:
The Shape of Punk to Come. But they were also trying to get away from the hardcore crowd around the time of writing that album.