[Florya]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

it has been good.

The only issue I have with your personal crfiteria for whan art is truly ART is that this view negates the many many people who either cannot make art, do not know how, or do not want to. Those people's experiences with the artwork once it is "complete" are as valid as the artist's, and can collectively become something so much more important and true and real than anything the artist ever conceived. For example, the Arc du Triumph, Taj Mahal, Mona Lisa, the Statue of Liberty, etc. These and many others are far more meaningful in their post-completion life, than in their pre-completion life.

Like I said before ART as opposed to art, exists only when a human mind is contemplating/experiencing the work of art.

I'm not doubting that people are affected by the art that they see, and if the artist intends for his work to have an emotional effect on the audience that consumes it, then that is part of the 'concept' and makes the artwork valid, even to my cynical eyes.
But I don't agree that the reaction to a work of art can be more important than than the idea behind the work, and I certainly don't agree that art only exists when it has an audience.
If the artist has no intention of sharing his work with the outside world, then that is part of the concept behind the work, and in no way diminishes it's artistic merit.

Let me use your examples to illustrate my point.

L'arc de Triomphe - basically a war memorial designed to commemorate French soldiers that died during the Napoleonic wars. At the time of it's completion it must have had a huge emotional effect on those that saw it, but that effect has diminished over time as the Napoloeonic Wars slip further into the mists of history. The French government have done their best to retain its emotional effect by adding a 'tomb of the unknown soldier' but it's original purpose, to honor those that died for France, for Napoleon, is fading. The edifice itself is crumbling, having to be patched up and restored every year. Eventually it won't be there any more.
But the idea, the genius, of Jean Chalgrin in designing such a striking memorial will live on. That is where the art lies, in the idea.

Remember, some on this forum will have you believe that because it was based on a previous, Roman design, that it has no artistic merit at all.

The Taj Mahal - A true work of art, built with a single purpose - to reflect forever the love of an Indian Emperor for his favourite wife. Designed by committee, but guided by the emperor's vision, everything about the building, its colour, its location and its domes are designed to trigger an emotional response in whoever sees it, even those who don't know what it is or what it signifies.

The statue of Liberty Enlightening The World - This is a bit more difficult because although I'm sure that Bertholdi designed Liberty to elicit a positive emotional response in those who had made the arduous Atlantic crossing in the late 19th century, I think he would be disappointed to see what emotional effect his statue, as an icon of the USA, has on the majority of people outside the country now, at the beginning of the 21st century.

So I guess it really falls into the same category as L'arc de Triomphe, great concept, innovative construction, and an emotional response that has wained over time.

The Mona Lisa - aahh, that old chestnut. A commission piece, used by da Vinci to perfect his innovative brushwork techniques. Hawked around Europe by da Vinci for a few years to show off these techniques and get more commissions. The modern day equivalent of da Vinci painting the Mona Lisa I guess would be someone like Steven Sasson inventing the digital camera. Remember da Vinci was principally an inventor, and whilst he was without doubt a very good painter, I'm not so sure that he was an artist.
The 'enigma' of the Mona Lisa has little to do with da Vinci's artistic expression and much more to do with his technical abilities in applying paint to canvas.

These are just my own personal opinions, and I have shared them only to try and illustrate my understanding of what ART is.

As I said earlier, it could take hours for me to try and fully explain my philosophy about art, but you're all probably bored to death with my ramblings by now, so if you don't mind I'm going to duck out of this discussion now and go and have a lie down!

It's been educational.