[Glice]

Originally Posted by wellcharge

listening to the interview "it's made up, they weren't reading music" was the most interesting part, becuase as far as i'm aware cage was always saying that traffic and the like is music, and surely traffic noises are not read off sheet music, so i think he should like that kind of thing?

I think the distinction was that Cage liked indeterminacy - that things should proceed in a analogous fashion to nature. So he leaves parts in his music where the outcome is uncertain - it is not entirely open.

I obviously can't speak for a dead man, but I'd imagine that Cage didn't realise the piece was scored was because it sounded improvised - that is, down to the will of the player, or conductor. This is not the same as 'totally random' because a player instinctively brings his/her playing pecadilloes to bear upon the music. It's the dead-end logic that sometimes gets thrown at free-improv, falsely to my mind (but that's another subject)

batreleaser's opinion further edifies my impression that he's a fuckwit with shit-for-brains.

Having said that, I wouldn't say Cage was beyond criticism. I think it's important to remember that a lot of Cage's music comes from the wrong side of the Atlantic, and the wrong side of the war. What I said earlier in this thread remains true - Cage saw Branca as a fascist, in line with Wagner. This isn't to do with Wagner or Branca's political beliefs, but to do with the desire to hyper-organise the concert situation to the submission of the audience. Cage lived through the time when 'there can be no poetry after auschwitz' embodies precisely why Cage hates Wagner. The individual enforcing their will upon society was the artistic anathema - hence Cage's Buddhist turn, if you will.

I'll say one thing - if there is such a thing as avant-garde, Cage is very close to it. But the avant-garde has strong Nietzschian ties, so I suspect I'd best abandon that line.

EDIT: sorry, to clarify the point about traffic - traffic doesn't impart a will, it is the will of the listener (or sound auter) to appreciate the sound traffic makes; indeterminate music (such as Cage's number pieces) require that sound-actions (or stage-actions) are begun by an operator, and the outcome is yet-to-be determined; improvisation is always a musician saying 'who am I? What do I do?' which isn't 'unnatural' per se but it is determinate.