[Hip Priest]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ha ha ha, calvin... yeah... but like calvin there were a myriad others-- even today, the televangelists scamming millions of people into sending money to support hate-- the thing is that the words are not so easy to fathom-- there are various diverging versions plus the writings of the apostles plust the apocryphal gospels and who knows what is what? so in the end everyone grabs a piece of scripture and builds an edifice of bullshit on top of it with which to wield power over others.

Well, not everyone builds an edifice of bullshit. Many are just looking for the truth, and trying to keep things simple. Most Christians are not screaming, greedy manipulators.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

which is by the way one of my problems with the reformation-- sure, the catholic church at the time was festering with corruption, but the centralized interpretation of the bible kept things more or less in check.

The Roman Catholic church still maintains as central several things that a great many Christians find to be contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

I am one of those people, and I think the faith needed stripping of those things. I am not one of the people who think that RCs are not Christian, however (a growing trend within non-RC communities).

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

once everyone had the freedom to make up their own meaning, all kinds of shit religions started to pop up.

Yes. But the thing is, and at the risk of repeating my central thought too much, what Jesus taught is pretty clear and obvious. It's simple, beautiful and no hard to get at.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

the reformation was great for the cause of freedom, but its downside is that it opened the door for all manner of cuckoo cults (ah, makes me miss the inquisition!-- no, not really).

It opened the door for people to look for the truth without strict control. That's good.

There are just as many cuckoo cult-type groups within things like socialism &c for me to repeat another point; these criticisms are criticisms of people, not religion. Religion, like politics, nationality &c, is often misused by people with their own motives.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i think the story of jesus is a nice metaphor for overcoming the limitations of the ego, and a good inspiration for socialism, and that's about that, but to try to turn it into a historical figure and find the "truth" about it is a kind of a wild goose chase.

It isn't. You have my word on it.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

right, but we don't need religion in order to have morality. we have our own animal behavior and if we work it out with some philosophy morality is just fine-- we don't need a deity or metaphysics to justify morality.

Earlier, as you will recall, I quoted a Bible passage that agreed with you, but with a slightly different spin. Whether you personally 'need' a god is not going to make much difference to whether or not one actually exists. He does. I definitely do not need socialism, but, to my extreme annoyance, it seems to keep spawning and surviving like some kind of insane labour party flu virus.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

yes, but here in 'merica the aggressive christians are legion (yes, there's a pun intended). bazillions of demented believers in the clutches of a handful of quacks. it's frightful.

I go to some lengths to follow Chrisitanity aound the world - printed media, broadcasts etc.

I have to admit that I do not like the vast majority of what I hear from America. I can understand Americans having huge problems with Christianity - most of what I see certainly doesn't represent what I believe, and certainly doesn't represent the teachings of Jesus. There are some people I really like, but they are the exception.

Christianity in the UK is not usually so aggressive, although that aspect is certainly present.

Christianity's main problem in recent years, I think, is that it is largely the lunatic fringe who have taken full advantage of the internet, while genuine Christian bodies failed to do so, and still fail to do so.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

oh, absolutely. love a good discussion. i don't think anybody here has accused you of being the next pat robertson.

behold: http://www.patrobertson.com/

i can't look much cuz i just had breakfast and i don't wanna vomit. but check it out.

I understand.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

That's interesting. I've never been quite able to get my head around that concept. I read something by Chomsky recently where he was claiming himself as a left-libertarian but I couldn't really work out what he meant by it.

I remember reading that.

Left? Liberty? Together?

(and imagine a tears of laughter smiley)