[GeneticKiss]

Today, I thought about how my band existed for around the same length of time as Joy Division, had a song output around the same size, and just how many similarities we shared with them, without necessarily sounding too much like them (very little "crowd working" at shows and an overall bleak vibe)...I also began to think about how if maybe we'd gigged far less sporadically and had gotten signed to a label and recorded an album or two, and if maybe instead of our frontman just giving up and making plans to move out of town, he'd disappeared Richey Edwards style, offed himself (he'd often joke about this), or we'd violently self destructed onstage, we would've been viewed posthumously in the same capacity as Joy Division.

But then I thought about how they rose form the ashes of Ian Curtis' death as New Order, and made a signifcant contribution to 80s pop and the history of dance music in general. Now obviously a lot has been published about Ian Curtis and his role in Joy Division, from films like 24 Hour Party People and Control to countless magazine articles, but would they have if the surviving band members had split and done other projects or just gotten "real" jobs? Maybe then the band would've been seen as a minor footnote in the history of post punk?

Basically, what I'm asking here (and the tl;dr version for illiterates with no attention span beyond 10 words) is if Joy Divison would've be seen as they are if not for New Order?

Discuss.

[RanaldoNecro]

I think a bands cache is diminished by being around for a long time. Some bands such as the Germs or Magazine have the benefit of not being exposed for a long time.

Thurston had admitted this as well in some interviews.

Also, you must rememeber that Joy Division only had a resurgance in the last few years. The were still remebered by critics etc. but not really in the public eye. Only since 2006 on with the publication of books, movies etc.

[gualbert]

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss

Basically, what I'm asking here (and the tl;dr version for illiterates with no attention span beyond 10 words) is if Joy Divison would've be seen as they are if not for New Order?
Discuss.

No.
It's kinda cool (I mean hype) to worship JD and to despise NO at the same time.

[atsonicpark]

I dunno man, all I know is that joy division is easily in the top 10 bands of all time. They had quite a large output beyond just the 2 albums, and many of their singles are better than their album tracks... To me, they made 2 PERFECT albums with unknown pleasures and new order. Yet even those 2 albums sound pretty different from each other. They might have eventually transmorphed into something underwhelming, because what's interesting about Joy Division is that none of them, conventionally, knew how to "play" their instruments at first, which is probably why they sound so off-kilter in their delivery, and their nontraditional songwriting techniques in reference to space and interplay (the bass is usually the main melodic instrument; the production of every song is quite different -- the producer is the 5th member, in a way, he really brought out a cool sound with the band)... It's hard to say what they would have turned into, perhaps they wouldn't done nothing but LOVE WILL TEAR US APARTs? Either way, I think the 40 ish songs they recorded are some of the best of all time, and they remain -- by circumstance or otherwise -- one of the most perfect bands ever.

I guess to answr your question more directly though, I think JD's influence far outweighs New Order.... I hate New Order actually, aside from maybe the first album and a single here or there. New Order just felt like a retread, even of itself, after a while. Joy Division just kept innovating, from their early "punk" ish sound to their "goth" stuf, or whatever (obviously the words in quotes are there for a lack of a better word to explain what I mean).

BASICALLY, JOY DIVISION WERE A LOT BETTER AND THUS INFLUENCED MORE MUSICIANS BY BEING GREAT AND CONSTANTLY INNOVATING WHILE NEW ORDER -- CERTAINLY INFLUENTIAL TO A FEW -- HARDLY HAS THE SAME IMPACT. I think even if New Order never existed, JD would still be remembered as being one of the best bands ever. Actually, even if Joy Division began releasing nothing but New Order-type shit, they'd still be remembered as one of the best bands ever, on the strength of those first 2 albums and early singles. Hell, even WIRE is often considered one of the best bands ever, even if only for their first 3 albums -- if you actually look at the Wire discography, about 10 of the albums are shit.

[gualbert]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

what's interesting about Joy Division is that none of them, conventionally, knew how to "play" their instruments at first,

I've read that about punk musicians in general many times.
They can't play their instrument! But yet, they do.
Weird!!

[Derek]

Originally Posted by gualbert

No.
It's kinda cool (I mean hype) to worship JD and to despise NO at the same time.

Probably cause Joy Division are great and New Order are horrible horrible shit.

[floatingslowly]

^^^ this is a new phenomenon that typically marks someone who didn't "grow up" listening to New Order.

ie: babies. hipster babies. with macs, thick black glasses and ironic kittens.

also:

ITT: big shoes to fill

[Derek]

Ian Curtis describes, like, my life man.

[pbradley]

if Joy Divison would've be seen as they are if not for New Order?

I think JD were pretty secure in a place of reverence of the indie/punk annals by the sake of their music alone. However, I'm sure New Order did help to propagate the legend beyond the status of being that one original British or Manchester band. Remember, Curtis killed himself before their first tour of the US and easily could remained an English band (rather than international) if New Order weren't there.

That said, I was curiously introduced to New Order through Joy Division rather than the other way around. I think that speaks to the power of the original music.

TL;DR - Joy Division were on the verge of establishing themselves beyond the UK until Ian opted out. Fortunately, New Order kept the band relevant.

[floatingslowly]

right now, I'm listening to New Order (on random lol) and imagining how lucky we all are that Ian killed himself.

[atsonicpark]

Originally Posted by gualbert

I've read that about punk musicians in general many times.
They can't play their instrument! But yet, they do.
Weird!!

well punk is just two fingers to make a power chord

in joy division there are plenty of supposedly "wrong notes" but it sounds beautiful

[RanaldoNecro]

Probably cause Joy Division are great and New Order are horrible horrible shit.

Just shows how much a name carries currency regardless of fact.