[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

. Sonic Youth's tragedy is the recent decline in the quality of their records, not the labels that release them.

what the fuck decline in quality are you referring to? I thought that everything has been a musical, artistic and technical progression...

[demonrail666]

Fair enough, but it's hard for me to think of SY's music (at least on their standard alkbums) in the last few years as being particularly interesting. I think it's fair to say at this stage that their best work is probably behind them. Which isn't that big a deal, given that any band that's been together for that long is eventually going to start winding down creatively.

SY's real value now is using its name as a trojan horse to bring other, better bands to people's attention.

[SynthethicalY]

demonrail makes a valid, point that maybe SY is going downhill, but I still like this melancholy side of them.

[hansjoakim]

i still think SY will release interesting records in the future. they won't be of sister or DDN calibre, but i still think they're able to churn out great, enjoyable tracks. i'm particularly looking forward to thurston's new solo record, as i've read some great things about it already.

it's quite bizarre to think about how many bands that have one or two watershed records in their catalogue. take SY (imo sister, DDN), dino jr. (YLAOM), sebadoh (III), hüskers (zen, NDR), minutemen (double nickle), radiohead (ok comp.), pavement (S&E, CR CR), ... most of them have an "arch", starting with some faltering steps, approaching perfection, and then a gradual decrease in "quality" output. it's like the band members' creative forces for one instance seamlessly blend together and they produce some truly remarkable, classic work. it's like when you throw a ball upwards... exactly when the ball slows down, stops, and then starts falling down again, that's where you want to be. you got the perfect combination of youthful, naive sloppiness and creativity, but also enough experience so that you're able to weed out the worst mistakes.

i don't SY will make more watershed records, timeless epics that will stand for ever, but i do think they'll continue to make new, solid records, interesting in their own right. who are able to continuously be vanguard, boundary pushing artists for over twenty years?

[SynthethicalY]

I am just waiting to see them break up, because that is inevitable.

[Dead-Air]

Originally Posted by SynthethicalY

I am just waiting to see them break up, because that is inevitable.

Inevitable like the sun engulfing the Earth, sure. It'll happen, but don't hold your breath. They are so much a family that I think it would take a death for the band to stop. They may not make a ton of money compared to pop stars, but they have a very comfortable existence being Sonic Youth, and I can't see how any of them leaving would be more profitable for that member. They already can and do whatever they want solo or in other groups, and if anyone thinks "formerly of Sonic Youth" is more marketable than "of Sonic Youth" then just ask Bob Bert about that.

As for the quality of recent albums, I think they are in a one record slump personally, as Rather Ripped is good, but not on a par with any of my favorites. Nurse was phenomenal though, and they've slumped before (I'm not a huge fan of 1,000 Leaves or EJT&NS, but Washing Machine and New York City Ghosts & Flowers are two of my all time faves). I love Sister and Daydream Nation, but I get mighty tired of hearing people who act like those are the only great albums Sonic Youth has done. I don't even think those two measure up to Bad Moon Rising in my own musical listening world, but so what, I wouldn't want them to keep doing the same thing over and over. Personally, I love SYR3, SYR4, and the Silver Sessions as much as some of the so-called "classic" albums from the '80s.

It's really not surprising that the band who wrote "Kill Yr. Idols" would forever have people trying to define themselves by saying, "I used to like Sonic Youth, but now I'm cooler than that..." However, said people are missing out on a lot of great boundary pushing music.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Dead-Air

It's really not surprising that the band who wrote "Kill Yr. Idols" would forever have people trying to define themselves by saying, "I used to like Sonic Youth, but now I'm cooler than that..." However, said people are missing out on a lot of great boundary pushing music.

As someone who makes no bones about prefering the pre-Geffen era Sonic Youth, I can honestly say that this has nothing to do with any desire to look 'cool'. I just think that their best work was done during that period. I own most of the band's official releases and like some of the later stuff a lot. It's just that these days, my need to keep up with what they do is more born out of habit and curiosity than any real sense of excitement. Like asking after old acquaintences you've long since lost real contact with.

Thank God for the Non-Sonic Sounds section. That's what I say!

[demonrail666]

that's maybe what makes them so interesting.

[Cantankerous]

yeah, well i heard that thurston had his robes hemmed in order to display his red prada loafers...

(i realize that probably no one will get the reference but i hear squeals of glee in my mind)

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by swa(y)

it is interesting that most could care less and almost choose to be stupid.

Didn't Lester Bangs have this whole thing about promoting 'informed stupidity' as some kind of a way of life? I think he mentioned it in terms of bands like The Seeds and The Stooges or something.

[k-krack]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Didn't Lester Bangs have this whole thing about promoting 'informed stupidity' as some kind of a way of life? I think he mentioned it in terms of bands like The Seeds and The Stooges or something.

What? "Informed stupidity" would mean someone LETS themselves be stupid. Ignorance is bliss, but only for the ignorant.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Fair enough, but it's hard for me to think of SY's music (at least on their standard alkbums) in the last few years as being particularly interesting. I think it's fair to say at this stage that their best work is probably behind them. Which isn't that big a deal, given that any band that's been together for that long is eventually going to start winding down creatively.

SY's real value now is using its name as a trojan horse to bring other, better bands to people's attention.

While that is definately a matter of flavor, I think it must be recognized that the music itself has become better according to musical standards. It is actually listenable to many different people now, and some of the sarcasm has been replaced with a more serious side, that aside from ATL, i wouldn't quite call melancholy. it also feels like the music on these past five or six records (excluding RR which just feels more fun) has been a progression in the eyes of the artists who made it, like an accomplishment of sorts.

So I couldn't say that their best work is behind them, but more that your favorite works are behind them. and hey, it happens, bands progress and change their styles as artists do, particularly if you add decades to the experiment.

look at this way, they could by like the Stones and really suck 30 years later, or they can be sonic youth and still put out innovative and original records that just might not be your cup of tea anymore.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

look at this way, they could by like the Stones and really suck 30 years later, or they can be sonic youth and still put out innovative and original records that just might not be your cup of tea anymore.

fair comment.

[hazel]

jumpin back to the original Starbucks issue ..aren't things indeed relative ? It ain't Wallmart ..not as far as assaulting small communites or worker treatment ..we all have to have a bank account and use energy, and many of our favorite artists' work is disseminated by corporations. So we pick products judiciously, most of us thinking we wouldn't benefit the world by staying isolated in a commune in Maine.. so why not Starbucks ?

[SynthethicalY]

Originally Posted by hazel

jumpin back to the original Starbucks issue ..aren't things indeed relative ? It ain't Wallmart ..not as far as assaulting small communites or worker treatment ..we all have to have a bank account and use energy, and many of our favorite artists' work is disseminated by corporations. So we pick products judiciously, most of us thinking we wouldn't benefit the world by staying isolated in a commune in Maine.. so why not Starbucks ?

Because these guys are hipsters.

[Moshe]

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/..._of_opting_in/

In Condemnation of Opting In



By Anne Elizabeth Moore

 

The culture that was sold out in the '90s has, in this decade, been forced off the market. There is no more selling out; there is only opting in.

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Within a few days of the announcement that Punk Planet magazine (which I co-edited for three years) was shutting down, our compadre in Chicago music journalism, Pitchforkmedia.com, dropped the sad news that the underground (and indie-supporting) stalwart Sonic Youth was signing a recording deal with Starbucks.
These were not synchronous events. They were causal, symbiotic even, if you are the megacorporate monolith. For 13 years,Punk Planetdevoted itself to reviewing every single independent music release we received, regardless of musical genre, and refused all big business advertising and content featuring major media players. Now it is gone, and what is taking its place? Starbucks.
Critics rushed to accuse Sonic Youth of selling out. Yet the hubbub about this being a revival of the great “sell-out” debates of the ’90s misses the point. Post-Nirvana, when bands jumped from independent labels to corporate majors, they did so for direct and indirect financial gain. Major labels offered a bigger audience and fat advances that allowed members to quit shitty day jobs and jump on what they hoped would be a fast track to success. Hot for the next Green Day and gearing up for the Telecom Act of 1996, the big labels were willing to make promises they’d never keep. The bands that signed left behind the friends who’d brought them onto independent labels in the first place, nurtured their smaller audiences, and provided them an autonomous but supportive environment to explore their sound. Sometimes indie labels were OK with the jump; after all, they couldn’t keep up with runaway demand for releases. But most everyone involved ended up angry and hurt: the labels, the bands, and sometimes, later, the major label reps whose bosses had promised to shepherd their picks through the process and didn’t follow through. “Sell-out” became the ultimate insult, a trade-in of community for money.
These days the transaction isn’t as clear: A band rarely leaps from an independent label to a major because many independent labels have been shoved out of business, forced to cut back on releases, or are unable to support records with advertising. Since media consolidation kicked in full-bore 11 years ago, radio play has homogenized around Sony and TimeWarner subsidiary releases. The process has seemed more natural online, with the integration of iTunes into our daily music discussions, and scant attention paid to what may not be available on iTunes—or online at all. Licensing deals are more common for lesser-known bands on independent labels, and taking them is one of the very few options available for musicians who want anyone to hear their sound. The culture that was sold out in the ’90s has in this decade been forced off the market. There is no more selling out; there is only opting in. To engage now, you do so under conditions over which you have no control.
And while these changes may seem organic, they are part of a cultural shift born of legislation that deregulated all media in the understanding that the unregulated pursuit of profit, rather than a democratic culture, is a goal shared by all. Of course, this legislation was not written by a coalition of indie music labels. They fought it tooth and nail, along with other independent media producers and political activists keen to defend the nation’s bedrock democratic ideals.
Punk Planet watched this cultural shift closely over the last three years as major media comically tried to procure our ad space. “Corporate connections are never [as] cut-and-dry as we would like them to be,” one CableVision-owned hack lectured us. He was on his third round of emails, the point of each having been to demand that we throw our 13-year-old ad policy (stated simply: no major media) into the toilet for his corporate-owned product. “But I’m a subscriber!” was how a similar exchange had ended some months before.
Despite CableVision’s assertion (and earlier, Nike’s, Victory Records’, HarperCollins’, and so many others) that these things just don’t matter anymore, a small group of us still believes that they do.
But our voices are being drowned out by our peers in the supposedly independent media. Not just by Sonic Youth guitarist Thurston Moore, who glibly calls Starbucks “the new record store,” but by music journalists like the Chicago Reader’s Miles Raymer, who recently argued in a piece called “In Praise of Selling Out” that the music industry’s decline can be “rescued by corporations that make everything but music.” Even if, as he acknowledges, salvation means a venue containing “no possible sight line that [doesn’t] intersect a poster, placard, or video screen carrying one or more sponsors’ logos.”
Utne Reader, itself recently sold to Ogden Publications, takes a stab at more thoughtful criticism, postulating that the naked consumerism of bands who opt in may overshadow their musical accomplishments. “While bands stand to profit from advertising’s exposure in the short term, will their openness to corporate patronage eventually leave them an unwanted legacy of being ‘the band that made that song from that car ad’?” Eric Kelsey asked in a July 5 story. Yet his query supposes a future where marketing and culture are not merged, and a past, perhaps foggily remembered, where such things mattered.
Now history is being rewritten. “Punk rockers are supposed to be especially hostile to the Man, but music consumers in the 15 to 24 demographic grew up watching punk, emo, and metalcore bands on the Vans Warped Tour, Rockstar Energy Drink’s Taste of Chaos tour, and the Honda Civic Tour,” Raymer writes. He ignores the debates that took place surrounding each of these sponsored tours, and blinds himself to the one that started it all: Jones Soda, now available in a Starbucks near you. Fully designed at its mid-‘90’s creation to “co-opt” the “counterculture”—as well as shuttle in egregious new marketing ploys like Proctor and Gambles’ youth word-of-mouth marketing program “Tremor”—Jones Soda brought product placement to those who hated products, through innovations like skateboard tour sponsorships and punk-rock venue vending machines. It marked the shift from the age of “selling out” to the age of “opting in.”
Unfortunately, the spaces devoted to drawing that line—reminding us that corporate sponsorship is an option we can refuse—have themselves succumbed to the times.Punk Planetis only one of many venues for corporate criticism no longer available, and although it may have been the last canary in this particular coal mine, it was still a canary. If Raymer is right, and the worst that bands have to fear is that they will be remembered as ad fodder instead of artists, at least they will be remembered. And the last vestiges of independent cultural production will wither and die.
“Old-timey indie ideals,” Raymer calls this line of criticism, and he’s right. I remember when it was common for kids to think of something, tape it or write it down or paste it up, and put it out into the world without having to go though a profit-minded distributor, music label or ISP. I remember when I could refuse to consent to demands made by big media and still have a place to work the next day. I remember autonomous cultural production done for the sake of promoting ideas and not achieving fame or fortune, and independent publishing devoted to engaged and critical journalism. And I remember when I could find music that didn’t put money into the pockets of the corporate giant that shut down the coffeeshop where I used to paste up my zines. I remember democracy. Those were the days.
Anne Elizabeth Moore is the author of Hey Kidz, Buy This Book! She teaches at Columbia College-Chicago and University of Illinois at Chicago and is the associate publisher of Punk Planet and Punk Planet Books.

[sonicl]

I didn't know that Punk Planet is closing. That bothers me far more than SY doing a CD for Starbucks.