[Glice]

Inspired by these posts in another thread:

Originally Posted by Bicorn Halfelven

After a quick google search for Dead Reptile Shrine, I was quickly greeted with a DRS cassette cover featuring an unmistakable Nazi eagle logo prominent on the cover. Didn't pick up on the song title "Exekutioner of the Final Solution" until seeing the record cover.

Looks like DRS is pretty blatantly NSBM (National Socialist Black Metal). I was thinking about posting this to my blog, but now I'm having reservations. The record is musically excellent... raw, crude, unhinged... unlike any other BM I've heard. Pretty unique. But i can't support the politics involved.

It's one thing to support a band such as Burzum, who's Varg Vikernes is an avowed white supremacist, but keeps the politics out of his music... There are quite a few NSBM bands who, for some reason, label themselves as NSBM but do not appear to involve their political message within their releases, either via artwork or lyrics.

Still, I can't support this kind of stuff.

Bummer, I thought they were cool...

Originally Posted by Bicorn Halfelven

I suppose you're right... if anything, I'd be "stealing" from them... even though this record has been sold out for a while. I also don't see black metal as a very effective recruiting tool.

Originally Posted by That Racist Italian cunt

That's quite a good observation that you've made there. I seriously doubt that any organisation that is actively promoting far-right ideas would really have some black metallers in their ranks. I mean, certainly not a political party that wants to be taken seriously, if I'm making sense.

So, I'm sure there are plenty of us who have Black Metal, Power Electronics, Nazi-noise and perhaps even some Prussian Blue in our collections. What's the general feeling on musicians with frankly risible opinions, or even political (in the sense of actually funding political groups which are appaling in their views) motivations. What's the difference between listening to Whitehouse or Non and listening to Skrewdriver or Prussian Blue [except that Skrewdriver are unmitigated shite, obviously]?

[Glice]

I don't necessarily want to refer to 'obscure' groups either - there are some huge figures in music with black marks against their names - Elton John is clearly a prick, Bowie's flirtation with the Nazis, Nico's rabid racism, various well-known anti-semites, the widespread homophobia of hip-hop and especially dancehall, perhaps even slightly less black-and-white political issues such as Zorn's Zionism. Not that Zionism is per se a bad thing, of course, but it is a politically contentious issue.

[farmhouse]

i'm listening to dead reptile shrine right now over breakfast and i had no idea of their political leanings.

now that i know . . . yeah, i feel slightly dirtied. the food has lost some of it's taste.

but this music is good.

i would make sure the artwork was not on display. that's all.

[atsonicpark]

Yeah, I think i love Arghoslent, who has one of the best guitar players I've ever heard.. this dude was playing the album for me for the first time and I realized the guy just growled, "NIGGER SWEATING IN JUNGLES!" And I was like "..." and then I saw the album was called "irreconciable bigotry". I mean, it's a totally awesome band, I don't even know what kind of genre you'd classify it as (it's kinda like Mastodon's brand of metal, musically, but with black metal-ish vocals). But yeah. Even though they're good, I have a difficult time listening, because I usually can't get into music if I don't like the people making it...

[pbradley]

Daniel Johnston's tasteless joke at SXSW springs to mind.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GCBbmHJnSg0

but I doubt this reflects any serious political beliefs

Originally Posted by Glice

I don't necessarily want to refer to 'obscure' groups either - there are some huge figures in music with black marks against their names - Elton John is clearly a prick, Bowie's flirtation with the Nazis, Nico's rabid racism, various well-known anti-semites, the widespread homophobia of hip-hop and especially dancehall, perhaps even slightly less black-and-white political issues such as Zorn's Zionism. Not that Zionism is per se a bad thing, of course, but it is a politically contentious issue.

I will get back on this because I haven't got the time to articulate myself properly and I'm still recovering from one of those heavy weekends, but for now I'll say that this is an interesting thread for many reasons. The whole debate about politics in music seems like it's generally swept under the carpet like a particularly nasty can of worms, because so many other factors go into it other than the music itself, and the fact that many of the dubious political leanings of those musicians who feel like they want to throw them in for shocking effect or for more serious reasons, can be put to bed with less words than you're reading on this post or on a whole book about it. The Nazi sympathies in Black Metal, to name one whole genre that engages itself in such activity, I generally see more as the need to shock attached to the actual desire for grotesque suffering that the music itself expresses, often with comedic results.

[pbradley]

Oh, and I didn't know about Bowie's brush with nazism and I found this Q&A article explaining it well.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Bowie-Dav...BOWIE-JEWS.htm

I particularly like the quote "There were bowls at the house which were never empty of cocaine."

You'd be even more surprised to find out that Nico had Turkish blood in her, could speak nearly 6 languages and had a Jewish manager, later on in her career. Even more surprising was her attitude towards Germany as a whole, and the disgust she'd feel at the song Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, while at the same time she would go on to claim that the nastiness she'd get from Lou Reed was possibly caused because of what 'my people did to his people'*. With that sort of permanent state of confusion inside a person's head, it's really hard to think of someone like they are a racist as such, rather than someone who might be using the race card when it becomes an easy instrument to gain some sort of attention. See Bowie too.

*Nico's own words

[atsonicpark]

hah.

[Tokolosh]

Let me get this straight. The one minute you say this is a music forum where we shouldn't discuss politics, and the next minute... this thread combining the two. Do me a favor, make up your minds or drown in your own vomit.

I like Agnostic Front, even though their shows are visited by herds of rightwing skinheads from all over the place.

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

Let me get this straight. The one minute you say this is a music forum where we shouldn't discuss politics, and the next minute... this thread combining the two. Do me a favor, make up your minds or drown in your own vomit.

I like Agnostic Front, even though their shows are visited by herds of rightwing skinheads from all over the place.

Alternatively we could stomp our nazi boots all over you, but that would only cause you pleasure, wouldn't it Tokolosh?

[Tokolosh]

Yes.

Ps: Didn't your mother ever teach you that being a gay nazi is contradictive? Carry on.

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

Yes.

Ps: Didn't your mother ever teach you that being a gay nazi is contradictive? Carry on.

Nope, too busy teaching me to have a sense of humour, which you seem to lack in spades. Spades, you know, like in that song that's called 'Ace Of Spades' by that band called Motorhead, and who have a singer called Lemmy who, you know, collects nazi paraphernalia.

[Tokolosh]

Fuck Lemmy and his moles.

Are you feeling a bit shit now?

Au contraire! Motorhead kick serious ass, and I couldn't care less about Lemmy's possible dodgy views because, you know Tokolosh, they are dodgy views.

ps: yep, feeling a bit like the inside of a gay anus.

[Danny Himself]

Originally Posted by pbradley

Daniel Johnston's tasteless joke at SXSW springs to mind.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GCBbmHJnSg0

but I doubt this reflects any serious political beliefs

I felt bad when I read about that, but it's not really Daniel in there anymore so whatever

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

Au contraire! Motorhead kick serious ass, and I couldn't care less about Lemmy's possible dodgy views because, you know Tokolosh, they are dodgy views.

ps: yep, feeling a bit like the inside of a gay anus.

Coffee enemas kick serious ass.
I like you, but I think you know that already.

[demonrail666]

Interesting thread topic. Most people, regardless of race creed or colour, have a certain fascistic side to them and certain types of music, art, whatever can easily stir that impulse. It's the same as spirituality. I'm not a christian but I can listen to gospel music and feel something, whatever it is.

Fortunately, on my part, I can listen to, enjoy and at times be moved by Burzum without becoming a national socialist, just as I can listen to, enjoy and at times be moved by Mahalia Jackson without becoming a christian.

[Glice]

On the gospel side of things, the London Community Gospel Choir, who, you may remember, are on every record that needs a bit of tacked-on 'soul' and perhaps one decent record (that Spiritualised one) are also avowed homophobic religious zealots. It wouldn't surprise me if they're on one of the militant anti-homophobic websites' 'bands to watch' list.

I think ultimately, the conclusion I'd draw would be 'I don't really care about their personal opinions' - however, I'd like a few more militant PC types to make a few points, and I do still feel slightly queasy when it comes to certain bands. Interestingly, people whose explicit lyrical politics are similar to mine I find deeply offensive in their banality.

I've been fascinated by music that operates at 'extremities' [useless word] for a while now - has anyone ever heard Dr Philip Randall/ Pauline Malign and the Eugenics Council? I'm usually more inclined to laugh at 'offensive for offensive's sake' type music [especially if it's in the noise idiom - Whitehouse are an exceptionally funny band] but there's something about these, especially Randall, that really gets under my skin. Which is at once fascinating and abhorrent. Should I let this music disturb me? Does that not engender the lyrics with a certain power that I'd rather not be giving it?

[Savage Clone]

"Message Music" and "Identity art" are generally annoying, but if people don't use their art form as a soapbox I really couldn't care less what their personal opinions are as long as the art/music/literature is of quality.