[hevusa]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I don't even know anything substantially to prove or describe gravity either

???
You mean you didn't make it past the 6th grade?

Your analogy would work better with "Aether" rather than gravity.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

You must spread some Reputation around before NOT giving it to hevusa again.

Originally Posted by hevusa

???

You mean you didn't make it past the 6th grade?

Your analogy would work better with "Aether" rather than gravity.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

In truth, I don't even know anything substantially to prove or describe gravity either, both are rather imaginary from my limited, human perspective, shit I don't even know if I really exist sometimes, or if anything really exists for that matter. But my humble ignorance should NOT negate the existence of either gravity

you were aware that you could take things entirely out of context without necessarily being so personally insulting?

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

you were aware that you could take things entirely out of context without necessarily being so personally insulting?

you compare God to gravity and you don't expect flack??? Come on man...
jump off a bridge and you can prove gravity pretty damn easily (not suggesting it). the same cannot be said of "God" no matter how you define it. you are grasping at the weakest straws I have ever seen in my life to prove your irrational addiction.

If you understand that even you might not be real there is no logical reason to live like a higher power is real. Try living honestly instead.

And patch things up with your folks for fucks sake! It doesn't matter if the man is a cocksucker. Escaping that reality through church is not going to help you in the long run.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by hevusa

you compare God to gravity and you don't expect flack??? Come on man...
jump off a bridge and you can prove gravity pretty damn easily (not suggesting it). the same cannot be said of "God" no matter how you define it. you are grasping at the weakest straws I have ever seen in my life to prove your irrational addiction.

If you understand that even you might not be real there is no logical reason to live like a higher power is real. Try living honestly instead.

And patch things up with your folks for fucks sake! It doesn't matter if the man is a cocksucker. Escaping that reality through church is not going to help you in the long run.

a) so you're going to try to make it even more personal? Lord have His mercy my friend, but you should read yourself sometimes, it is laughable at how mean-spirited you can be when otherwise you are not such an asshole in other threads and under other circumstances. I only continue to reason and discuss this with you cuz otherwise I like you, and yet you insist on fucking insulting me personally time and time again, whether my intelligence or my family or whatever, it is ridiculously off-topic. Who is the real one grasping at straws here, can't you stay on the issue without having to attack my character or insult my personality? Back to the discussion:

gravity is a bit more essential than simply falling of a bridge, technically that doesn't even prove gravity at all, more likely kinetic energy and laws of motion. Gravity acts more on an atomic and subatomic level. But you missed my point entirely. Gravity is not something you can inherently prove, it is sort of a given of experience. How is it that you prove Gravity my friend? With what? Do explain? and even if you go into all kinds of quantam mechanics, where is the actual proof? Existentially, you don't even know if any moment from the next is indeed real or a dream or a hallucination, and further any thing happening could just be an elaborate construction of that vision. Are you really that sure that any of this is real? And How is it that you prove this to anyone? Really, honestly, without fucking around on your high-horse, don't respond, just stop, marinate and think about it.

You do not necessarily describe how you defy gravity in learning to play a game like basketball, you do not explain it as such when teaching a kid how to shoot, and it rarely comes to mind. This is my allegory, if God(s) exists and God(s) is the source and origin of all existing things, then surely this God(s) operates as fundamentally in our Multiverse as do the fundamental cosmological forces, which in the theism of the Hellenists, these forces precisely were God(s), whereas in the Christian conception such "forces" and "powers" and "natures" emanate from the Divine, are sort of reflections, shadows, or smoke which reveals the substance of the Divine activity/economy, showing the form of what is essentially formless as the wind which the smoke drifts upon. Good God(s) man, are you still here arguing?

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

gravity is a bit more essential than simply falling of a bridge, technically that doesn't even prove gravity at all, more likely kinetic energy and laws of motion. Gravity acts more on an atomic and subatomic level. But you missed my point entirely. Gravity is not something you can inherently prove, it is sort of a given of experience. How is it that you prove Gravity my friend? With what? Do explain? and even if you go into all kinds of quantam mechanics, where is the actual proof?

The proof? We aren't eating our food out of tubes. That is the proof. The tides of the ocean. Michael "Air" Jordan.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Existentially, you don't even know if any moment from the next is indeed real or a dream or a hallucination, and further any thing happening could just be an elaborate construction of that vision. Are you really that sure that any of this is real? And How is it that you prove this to anyone? Really, honestly, without fucking around on your high-horse, don't respond, just stop, marinate and think about it.

We are 100% on the same page here. We can't prove any of this is real, including you or I. That doesn't mean one should disconnect rationale to believe in a deity, especially those found from scripts of ancient civilizations. That would be mind blowingly' ridiculous, cause conflicts between groups of people, injustice to minorities, and create illogical laws. Don't ya think??

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

You do not necessarily describe how you defy gravity in learning to play a game like basketball, you do not explain it as such when teaching a kid how to shoot, and it rarely comes to mind. This is my allegory, if God(s) exists and God(s) is the source and origin of all existing things, then surely this God(s) operates as fundamentally in our Multiverse as do the fundamental cosmological forces, which in the theism of the Hellenists, these forces precisely were God(s), whereas in the Christian conception such "forces" and "powers" and "natures" emanate from the Divine, are sort of reflections, shadows, or smoke which reveals the substance of the Divine activity/economy, showing the form of what is essentially formless as the wind which the smoke drifts upon. Good God(s) man, are you still here arguing?

haha. Of course I am still here. This is the most fascinating subject on earth in my opinion. I'm glad you are indulging me.
Why in the world would a God have to operate under the laws of the universe??? This makes no sense. If a God was truly all powerful and omnipresent he would not be limited in any manner, including the laws of gravity. And there is always the question of what created said God if God actually did create everything.

And your basketball thingy. You don't teach a kid the parabolic path that the ball travels after it is thrown either. That doesn't mean that math isn't real and that the kid won't learn it in algebra class later like the rest of us schmucks.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by hevusa

The proof? We aren't eating our food out of tubes. That is the proof. The tides of the ocean. Michael "Air" Jordan.

the tides are theoretical evidence of planetary motion and suggest gravitation but is not necessarily a smoking gun. The more convincing evidence lie in some of the experiments in these new, monstrous colliders where all kinds of subatomic evidence is coming to light. But then again, even that is not really evidence, it is subjective to the technology, to the understanding of the observer, of the circumstances, etc etc. It is hardly proof, just as there isn't any objective proof of God(s).
My point entirely through this and other similar discussion is that existentially, there is no proof of anything, and further it is bad science to get caught up religiously about particular current theories because such theories will always and inevitably get replaced and refuted with new theories...

Explanations of phenomena which we experience and observe today with what we call gravitation are just theoretical, with convincing evidence for sure, but none-the-less almost purely theoretical.. Good science is never sure of it self, because then it will miss the next thing..

We are 100% on the same page here. We can't prove any of this is real, including you or I

above it all, existentially, nothing is provable, so I don't see what you are arguing about? I never attempted to prove God(s), rather to discuss God(s) as was asked in the thread topic, and yet you are bashing around trying to disprove everything, and hardly succeeding at that! Lets stick with what we agree on, good music and that reality as we know it does not exist, so why get caught up in all the bullshit?

. That doesn't mean one should disconnect rationale to believe in a deity, especially those found from scripts of ancient civilizations. That would be mind blowingly' ridiculous, cause conflicts between groups of people, injustice to minorities, and create illogical laws. Don't ya think??

Again, that is your assumption that it is a disconnection to believe or experience a deity, because much like theories of gravitation we were discussing, religion and deity are merely theories, some complex, to describe observed experiences in people's lives and in our reality at several levels. Religious people, much like scientists, are content with subjective or suggestive evidence and explanations rather then hard-line, obvious proof, because there are not really many examples of hard-line proof of anything! I mean, sure it sounds nice to explain the snow and static and feedback on my analog TV as coming from background radiation from the big bang and therefore evidence of the big bang, but come off it, is that really any kind of proof? Who are we kidding here!

The conflicts you speak of have far more factors then just religion by the way, you should be careful so simplify such complicated socio-political matters. Was the Protestant Reformation about Luther? No, it was about wealthy Dutch, German and English royalty and nobility breaking away from the authority, politically and economically of the Vatican and the Roman clergy who were vast land owners, taxmen and investors. Was the Crusades about religious wars? Hardly, thats why in the 3rd Crusade they skipped Jerusalem entirely and sacked their political and economic arch rival the Byzantines? Today, the jihadists attack Westerners over religion? Or is it geopolitics of Western military expansion, proxy wars and greed exploitation?

haha. Of course I am still here. This is the most fascinating subject on earth in my opinion. I'm glad you are indulging me.
Why in the world would a God have to operate under the laws of the universe??? This makes no sense. I.

God(s) is a Mystery, its better not to try to explain. And further, it is the very nature of the concept of God(s) entirely NOT to make any sense, that is precisely the point of things considered supernatural.

I'm glad we can come to a more amicable agreement here, but please, consider not insulting me or my family in the future, if we were having this same discussion in a bar or a library we may have had to exchange blows over a few of your words, friends or not! maximum respect to you my brother, but speak the real! stay positive!

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

above it all, existentially, nothing is provable, so I don't see what you are arguing about? Lets stick with what we agree on, good music and that reality as we know it does not exist, so why get caught up in all the bullshit?

Amen to that!
I'm not sure I will ever fully grasp why one would "make up" stuff just to fill the void of understand though. I honestly think it has devastating consequences for humanity. And not only do we know that gravity exists, we know how fast it travels (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2639043.stm).

I'm not fucking around when I say I hope you can find a path to honesty. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful about your family. I do believe you at the church you are because of family related trauma. It is a direct (and quite obvious) cause and effect relationship and I know this without you ever having mentioned it. This is probably the reason it troubles you so.

[jon boy]

what i really cant stand about people who are overly religious is that they never shut up about religion and use every available opportunity and thing you say to scew it to some religious thing or belief that they have, or go off about they're views when you never wanted to know in the first place. its the hijacking of things for personal gain that gets me.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by jon boy

what i really cant stand about people who are overly religious is that they never shut up about religion and use every available opportunity and thing you say to scew it to some religious thing or belief that they have, or go off about they're views when you never wanted to know in the first place. its the hijacking of things for personal gain that gets me.

agreed, but you should make sure to discern sincerity for hypocrisy, after all, some people are just really into their religion, or are really new to their religion, like a new band or movie or scientific factoid or history book they just read, and so they feel the need to share it and bring it into every conversation. Others are just bible thumping or power-tripping, and these should be treated in the same humble patronizing that you would give an overeager 9 year old

Originally Posted by hevusa

Amen to that!
I'm not sure I will ever fully grasp why one would "make up" stuff just to fill the void of understand though.

You continually misunderstand things you have not perhaps experienced as being made up by those who have. That is silly, why don't you just leave it as something you do know understand rather then making such rash assumptions? Let me explain it a bit better sans the theology:

Religion is the comforting place of the songs our mothers sang which fill us with faith, hope, endurance, patience, joy in our times of sorrow, trial, boredom or rejoicing. Our lives on earth suck. This much is obvious. Religion, much like the theories of gravitation (there are multiple ones by the way ) are concepts and structures which explain the experience that our mothers faithful song conveys through time beyond the moments she sang, the reassurance that no matter the pain, the struggle, the difficulty, in time it will all pass. Everything will always inevitably work out some way in the end. We religious folk call this God(s)

 

"when i was just a kid.. my mother used to sing to me.. and those songs which she did sing, still linger deep within my soul..."

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

agreed, but you should make sure to discern sincerity for hypocrisy, after all, some people are just really into their religion, or are really new to their religion, like a new band or movie or scientific factoid or history book they just read, and so they feel the need to share it and bring it into every conversation. Others are just bible thumping or power-tripping, and these should be treated in the same humble patronizing that you would give an overeager 9 year old.

no thats exactly one of the things thats really annoying and puts me off completely. if you cant not talk about your religious beliefs when having a conversation dont say anything.

[SpaceCadetHayden]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Religion is the comforting place of the songs our mothers sang which fill us with faith, hope, endurance, patience, joy in our times of sorrow, trial, boredom or rejoicing. Our lives on earth suck. This much is obvious. Religion, much like the theories of gravitation (there are multiple ones by the way ) are concepts and structures which explain the experience that our mothers faithful song conveys through time beyond the moments she sang, the reassurance that no matter the pain, the struggle, the difficulty, in time it will all pass. Everything will always inevitably work out some way in the end. We religious folk call this God(s)

 

"when i was just a kid.. my mother used to sing to me.. and those songs which she did sing, still linger deep within my soul..."

Thank you, suchfriends. Srsly

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

agreed, but you should make sure to discern sincerity for hypocrisy, after all, some people are just really into their religion, or are really new to their religion, like a new band or movie or scientific factoid or history book they just read, and so they feel the need to share it and bring it into every conversation. Others are just bible thumping or power-tripping, and these should be treated in the same humble patronizing that you would give an overeager 9 year old


You continually misunderstand things you have not perhaps experienced as being made up by those who have. That is silly, why don't you just leave it as something you do know understand rather then making such rash assumptions? Let me explain it a bit better sans the theology:

Religion is the comforting place of the songs our mothers sang which fill us with faith, hope, endurance, patience, joy in our times of sorrow, trial, boredom or rejoicing. Our lives on earth suck. This much is obvious. Religion, much like the theories of gravitation (there are multiple ones by the way ) are concepts and structures which explain the experience that our mothers faithful song conveys through time beyond the moments she sang, the reassurance that no matter the pain, the struggle, the difficulty, in time it will all pass. Everything will always inevitably work out some way in the end. We religious folk call this God(s)

 

"when i was just a kid.. my mother used to sing to me.. and those songs which she did sing, still linger deep within my soul..."

I guess the difference between you and me is you can pretend even though you know it is bullshit. I can't.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Derek

1. What is your stance on vestigial organs? Many scientists claim that through evolution some organs have lost their purpose but a lot of fundamentalists would say these organs still have uses and thus are not vestigial (such as someone without tonsils is 4 times more likely to contract disease even though doctors deem it perfectly safe to remove them).

2. Through quantum physics, there's been massive support that particles can form out of nothing, somewhat showing that the universe could be uncaused. What do you think about this?

3. Do you believe that a higher entity indeed created us entirely or rather that an entity planted the seeds for our growth and we simply evolved over time? Or is it that your religion is simply a spiritual quest and does not conform to the views of a Christian God?

4. God is often depicted in a human form, explained by people's needs to make God relatable to them. Do you think this is right or is the idea of 'god' simply a force outwith our comprehension?


Coming from a non-religious background, I'm interested in gaining some perspective that's not simply a teacher talking as you could understand. This thread isn't to denounce either religion or science, but rather to observe each other's views, remember.

1. Vestigial organs, for me, just support the fact that we are still evolving. While not an "organ", wisdom teeth spring to mind. More and more people are not only being born without them (yes, completely normal + expected) but never having them come in, period. I'm one of these people.

2. I believe that the universe could have totally came into play without the aid of what most's concept of God happens to be. To these people I say "If God came from no where, why can't anything else?"...

3. Seeds were planted, sure. There was a beginning, and there will be an end (to quote the scriptures "Alpha + Omega") to virtually everything as we know it. Something happened somehow, but I don't believe it was due to any conscious effort of a higher power. I stress "conscious". Is it possible? Sure.

4. If God exists...it no doubt goes far beyond anyone's comprehension. A long time ago I realized that there have been people far more intelligent than I who spent near-lifetimes attempting to work out such questions...never with any solid facts coming into fruition as a result (at least no facts that answer the big "does God exist" question). "Hints", sure. There have been hints...but hints tend to lead to new theories which lead to new questions that absolutely everyone, atheists and those that believe in god alike, will attempt answering in their own special little ways. For me, I'm comfortable not knowing. I think that if there does happen to be a God that is aware of my wee-little existence, he can appreciate this fact....if only because I ain't claiming to know anything I can't back up.

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

For me, I'm comfortable not knowing. I think that if there does happen to be a God that is aware of my wee-little existence, he can appreciate this fact....if only because I ain't claiming to know anything I can't back up.

This notion is what the future of humanity has to cling to in order to unite and survive in peace. There will NEVER be a consensus in the world as to what exactly God should be as the possibilities are infinite. Hell, there is usually not a consensus within the same family. One thing most humans can agree on is that honesty is a good thing. Why not start being spiritually honest, like Mr(s). Ashtray, today?

[Glice]

Originally Posted by hevusa

This notion is what the future of humanity has to cling to in order to unite and survive in peace. There will NEVER be a consensus in the world as to what exactly God should be as the possibilities are infinite. Hell, there is usually not a consensus within the same family. One thing most humans can agree on is that honesty is a good thing. Why not start being spiritually honest today?

Not a strong reader of Kant, are you? Funnily enough, you're very good at cant though.

[pbradley]

 

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by hevusa

This notion is what the future of humanity has to cling to in order to unite and survive in peace. There will NEVER be a consensus in the world as to what exactly God should be as the possibilities are infinite. Hell, there is usually not a consensus within the same family. One thing most humans can agree on is that honesty is a good thing. Why not start being spiritually honest, like Mr(s). Ashtray, today?

I fear most fear spiritual honesty.