[Keeping It Gimple]

also, im glad you came to that conclusion even tho i dont know shit about your situation because being real - how many of us who grew up pre net have successfully adapted to reality now? the answer is sadly not enough - so many frustrated artists and musicians having breakdowns because they cant rely on the old methods. you got to embrace if not the future then at least reality.

lets be real - the game is up. doesnt matter if you are right or wrong that people ought to pay for shit they can download, the fact is by and large they won't.

the fact is with our failing system the money to spend on such things just isnt there

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Gimple

dude im talking about this stuff all the time with everyone know and the responses are starting to stress me - not because they dont accept my almighty proclamations but because noone is engaging in an actual discussion of the ideas.

okay. but we're here trying to discuss your ideas, yes? schizo, suchfriends, me-- i thought we were trying. right?

Originally Posted by Keeping It Gimple

some of the reactionary and nasty responses i get make me very angry.

okay but-- was it us? we're friend not foe. i mean i might disagree with you at times but i read you with an open mind. hence, my mind is able to change-- as it *just* changed on the whole copyright issue.

not that i won't respect someone's claim to copyright under the current law-- but that MY "business" model is going to change from hoard-and-sell to open source under some current legal standard of open source. i'll have to go look at creative commons.

if that's not a demonstration that i have been making an attempt to understand what you're trying to say about capitalismetc, then i don't know what is.

and it brings a HUGE fucking relief.

so, maybe this notion that you're being understood by another human, even if only in part, can relieve your pent-up anger a bit.

Originally Posted by Keeping It Gimple

proles have to work to serve me rather than machines because it gives VALUE TO THEIR LIVES like their only existential value is as servants. some of the shit ive heard has really disheartened me. people saying that its wrong to live alone and indepedently if you have the tech to do so? anglo nazi bs. its fair for the rich or maybe they agree its unfair but "we cant do anything about that" yet when i suggest poors might be better off in solar powered vans rather than going homeless trying to pay rent they get angry!

okay, i hope some of us here are not that though. sometimes we take your rage personally.

[Keeping It Gimple]

yeah im sorry.

im nasty in general and uh, i am at least aware of it. haha

[Keeping It Gimple]

the anger comes from frustration after trying to warn people - ive seen businesses that nearly failed because one partner was too technophobic and living in an obsolete fantasy land. there are SO MANY PEOPLE right now whose jobs are going to be replaced by software and machines and you try and warn them and you hit a wall of pigheaded denial and ignorance. and im being very subtle and nice and not trying to rub it in - ive genuinely tried to help others. but of course denial is a river in egypt

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Gimple

im happy for you and hope you can find a way to do this and make money, or do it and survive anyway.

well im going to change some existing work to a CC license. i have to talk with the distro people because there may be some shit in place that needs to be dismantled first. but i'm moving in that direction.

THEN, instead of trying to make-hoard-sell, i'll look for public/crowd funding to say-- IF YOU FUND THIS PROJECT I'LL GIVE IT ALL AWAY.

currently we have people asking if they can use our stuff in class in schools etc and i have to be like "im sorry we don't handle that talk to the distro" and it's such shit mean stingy feeling but then like the good soul of szechuan you think-- "this fucker gets a full salary and wants my shit for free, fucking parasite".

so instead we'll make the transaction upfront-- IF WE GET FUNDED, WE GIVE IT ALL AWAY, FREE FOR ALL, EVERYWHERE.

if we don't get funded, then i don't waste time making something nobody wants and get a job in a kitchen.

what we give up is the "potential" for "megaprofits" should we "hit it big" (ah, that stupid dream we never wanted anyway).

what we also give up (better) is the pain of being a fucking stingy hoarder-- that is an IMMEDIATE reward.

that's where my reasoning is at this moment. maybe it's fucked up maybe it's the right thing to do. won't know till i try.

[Keeping It Gimple]

its not fucked up at all, its just adapting.

fact is that all these services and anything you can come up with online will eventually circulate for free. so make whatever you can off it until then.

[gmku]

Have to admit, I don't exactly understand your business, symbol man, or this new venture. I think working in academia shields me from many of the harsh realities.

Can you describe what you're doing in terms a second-grader might understand?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Gimple

its not fucked up at all, its just adapting.

fact is that all these services and anything you can come up with online will eventually circulate for free. so make whatever you can off it until then.

yeah i know

the other day a friend wants to send me a link. from something that you have to pay to watch on vimeo.

"i know your stand on piracy" he says

"yes" i say

"but i wanted you to take a look at it. it's a little movie made with puppets. i think you guys could make something like that."

"okay..."

days pass, i never opened the link, i thought it was a contribution to gangrape.

then later i think--

"so why do i wanna make something like that? so that someone else can figure out how to upload it to some file server and give it for free?"

well, YES.

but i'll take that into account upfront. it will happen.

earlier i was telling madame !@#$%! -- instead of being afraid of the pirate ship, WE JUMP INTO IT. take me, pirate ship!

so yes. that's it. instead of a copyright gangrape, it's an open source orgy.

[Keeping It Gimple]

also symbol, you are the only one who gets it. other people think i am insane because i get excited about my mega parka. what do they expect? a limitless flow of jobs and cash to spend on frivolous crap over and over again forever? good luck!

my parka is a real thing that exists in reality and their idealism is a depression waiting to happen

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by gmku

Have to admit, I don't exactly understand your business, symbol man, or this new venture. I think working in academia shields me from many of the harsh realities.

Can you describe what you're doing in terms a second-grader might understand?

i produce media for second-graders.

hilarious contrast with my internet persona, i know.

--

eta- i'll still do work for hire & commercial purposes. it's the "art" end that i'm talking about now. mucho trabajo y poco dinero.

[Keeping It Gimple]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

yeah i know

the other day a friend wants to send me a link. from something that you have to pay to watch on vimeo.

"i know your stand on piracy" he says

"yes" i say

"but i wanted you to take a look at it. it's a little movie made with puppets. i think you guys could make something like that."

"okay..."

days pass, i never opened the link, i thought it was a contribution to gangrape.

then later i think--

"so why do i wanna make something like that? so that someone else can figure out how to upload it to some file server and give it for free?"

well, YES.

but i'll take that into account upfront. it will happen.

earlier i was telling madame !@#$%! -- instead of being afraid of the pirate ship, WE JUMP INTO IT. take me, pirate ship!

so yes. that's it. instead of a copyright gangrape, it's an open source orgy.

exactly.

if you work with the piracy you can find the gaps and opportunities around it.

[gmku]

Ah. So, educational films, basically? For use in schools?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by gmku

Ah. So, educational films, basically? For use in schools?

not really on purpose, but they find use for it.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Gimple

exactly.

if you work with the piracy you can find the gaps and opportunities around it.

not just that but i can reach a larger audience which often lacks the means to "buy" my overpriced items.

*and they actually need them*

teh "artist support" distro that we work with charges big bucks-- and gives us 75% of the take. they have good intentions, and a good mandate, but they follow the capitalist make-hoard-sell model.

instead i'll use the peasant model of
ask for community help-make-give back to community

[gmku]

I'm not sure I see what is wrong with the make-hoard-sell model. We live in a capitalist society. We are, by virtue of living where we live, all, whether we like it or not, capitalists.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by gmku

I'm not sure I see what is wrong with the make-hoard-sell model. We live in a capitalist society. We are, by virtue of living where we live, all, whether we like it or not, capitalists.

that may be, but i'm very fucking uncomfortable in it-- like when i had to wear a school uniform because i went to a school that required a uniform. by virtue of attending that school i had to, whether i liked it or not, wear that uniform.

but see, i've always been a recalcitrant noncomformist. i was extremely happy when i didnt' have to wear that uniform anymore.

the other thing that nik points out is-- the capitalist model is a leaky lifeboat at this point-- especially when it comes to the "information economy".

you know before gaymotron's latest season was released, millions of people had already seen it? and they have hordes of lawyers and money to incentivize the cops-- i don't.

my friend the copyright gangrapist PAYS for an anonymyzer service that lets him download whatever he wants.

yep, it costs more than a monthly netflix subscription i think.

[Keeping It Gimple]

hes paying for a VPN which is unnecessary if you know how to be properly anonymous online

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Gimple

hes paying for a VPN which is unnecessary if you know how to be properly anonymous online

right-- but regardless-- that goes to show that people are willing to pay more to steal performance rights than to buy them.

the irony is not lost on me.

then again of course he can access more stuff. but still.

it's like buying a glass cutter and cat burglar gear to break into shop windows instead of going into the shop to buy.

i have no way to enforce my copyrights so i'd rather embrace their loss. no "fbi" notice will every do shit-- it's a fucken joke.

and with that acceptance i can give up the mean & stingy feeling of saying "sorry, no pay no play" to the honest people who think they can't afford the goods. HERE HAVE IT FOR FREE-- if the pirates can have it, so can you. free for everyone. no need for lawyers, lawsuits, middlemen, bean counters, agents, gatekeepers, professional parasites.

FREEDOM.

[gmku]

I guess I don't see it in those terms. To be clear, I don't believe in conspicuous consumption, or in outright greed. But capitalism feels more to me like the weave of life, or like the skin we breathe in, not the uniform we put on. Services are rendered, services are paid for. I've met a few people who attempt to escape the system, who even think they've escaped, e.g., I know people who live in a bus to escape the system of banking and feeding the mortgage system, etc., and lo and behold, they're now RENTING space for their bus on property for which somebody else pays the MORTGAGE! (What they've done is basically become selfish people who live off the generosity of people who are still part of the capitalist system.) There is no escape from the system we live in. We can rail against it, hate it, and yet, it's what we have. I think we can make it better, and to my view, that means blending it with some form of socialism, but to think there's another way is simply delusional, I think.

I'm not part of the information economy, so I'm not seeing that happening, obviously. I would guess the change you describe might take place there without impacting the larger economy.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

that may be, but i'm very fucking uncomfortable in it-- like when i had to wear a school uniform because i went to a school that required a uniform. by virtue of attending that school i had to, whether i liked it or not, wear that uniform.

but see, i've always been a recalcitrant noncomformist. i was extremely happy when i didnt' have to wear that uniform anymore.

the other thing that nik points out is-- the capitalist model is a leaky lifeboat at this point-- especially when it comes to the "information economy".

you know before gaymotron's latest season was released, millions of people had already seen it? and they have hordes of lawyers and money to incentivize the cops-- i don't.

my friend the copyright gangrapist PAYS for an anonymyzer service that lets him download whatever he wants.

yep, it costs more than a monthly netflix subscription i think.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by gmku

I guess I don't see it in those terms. To be clear, I don't believe in conspicuous consumption, or in outright greed. But capitalism feels more to me like the weave of life, or like the skin we breathe in, not the uniform we put on. Services are rendered, services are paid for. I've met a few people who attempt to escape the system, who even think they've escaped, e.g., I know people who live in a bus to escape the system of banking and feeding the mortgage system, etc., and lo and behold, they're now RENTING space for their bus on property for which somebody else pays the MORTGAGE! (What they've done is basically become selfish people who live off the generosity of people who are still part of the capitalist system.) There is no escape from the system we live in. We can rail against it, hate it, and yet, it's what we have. I think we can make it better, and to my view, that means blending it with some form of socialism, but to think there's another way is simply delusional, I think.

I'm not part of the information economy, so I'm not seeing that happening, obviously. I would guess the change you describe might take place there without impacting the larger economy.

right. i'm actually moving from communally-owned land back to a city so that i can once again partake of the monetary economy full-time (the land thing was an experiment and we learned A TON).

and i plan to do work for money-- i.e., the WORK gets paid. especially if someone else controls it. "i need you to document this situation that i need to preserve for posterity". i go and i do the work and i charge money. i sell labor. i don't own the product, i like to do work for hire in these situations because i do not want to get into the business of managing the rights of a project that's not mine. so at the end i hand everything to the client and say "good luck." that's just like you writing a piece for an institutional publication-- they pay you and they own the publication.

where i am thinking open source is for art projects. where we don't charge for labor but instead pay the labor ourselves and then sell a PRODUCT.

this is a different animal altogether. because when you make art you want people to see it. but the economics of indie art are such that more people will pirate than pay for a product--making it a money loser-- unlike the economics of HBO where millions pirate but enough people pay for subscriptions to keep it churning.

so, i ask-- why suffer? why try to control the uncontrollable? tame the wind? cover up the sun? i'll try to use the wind and the sun in my favor instead-- give it away to the elements like plant pollen-- and attempt to make a living in a different, non-hoarder way. it's well worth exploring.

makes sense?

as for the naturalization of capitalism-- no. that's ideology-- brainwash, if you will.

for example, you don't apply capitalism within your family-- you don't charge rent to your kids or itemize their food consumption. you might keep separate bank accounts with your partner (i don't) but you don't keep a running tab of who owes what to whom, do you? one quits work to go to school, you don't charge them "student debt". the family is collectivist.

i'm not an extremist, but i come from a place where when you drink with friends you put your cigarettes in the middle of the table. you don't hoard them in your pocket. also, people don't "go dutch" at the restaurant. there's a reciprocity, but it's elsewhere, a bit like a family. there is less embarrassing bean-counting. "it's on me!" "okay, next one's on me". but nobody keeps track.

here in 'merica, bean-counting central, i am also member of various co-ops, which are member-owned and operated by different standards and values. i also like working with nonprofits of various sorts-- yes, some of them are just the ideological branches of capitalism, but still-- there are options and alternatives. people live in communes. people do co-housing. there's barter and freecycle. there is of course open source software and wikipedia. all sorts of things occur outside money-fueled markets. the ethos is changing.

with friends, we share favors and gifts and energy and time-- no keeping tallies or charging interest. capitalism is not a universal compulsory model. it's a choice. efficient for some things, destructive for others.

i'm not monotheistic. i enjoy mocking jealous angry gods who demand total worship.

make a little room for goofy hermes.

he likes creative commons orgies, i'm sure.

he smuggled orpheus out of hades after all, the tricky bastard.