[golden child]

Originally Posted by wax

you turn on the tv, you pick up a newspaper, you turn on the radio you get war war fucking war. misery.
then you go to one place thats not talking about war, and someones telling you that you should be talking about it.
maybe we should.
but i dont want to. i used to be of the opinion that we should all be really upset about everything that happens in the world. we should lose sleep over it and try and fix all the ills in the world. now im not.
we cant do anything. maybe if everyone managed to get organised they could do something, but to be honest, the only people with the required motivation are those who are already affected and already involved.
its all so sad and terrible. i agree. who fault? does it even fucking matter?
the whole of history has been war, killing and diesease just as bad as today. now we all know whats going on on the other side of the world so it seems like its getting worse. its not. its the fucking same. nobodys gonna stop it. the only people who have the power and motivation to do anything are already part of it. everyone else is ignored.
its the same as when i used to go to demonstrations and think i would make a difference. you dont really make a difference. but you can piss off the people and companies you hate even if only for one day.
i feel more relaxed these days now that i realise human nature has never changed and that nothing is getting any worse. i used to try and research all of the horrible things that were happening and it just made me feel anxious and angry. i dont want to feel like that.
everybody says talking is the way forward. its bollox. you can talk about the same thing over and over and it never sorts itself out.
you have to fight. and whilst all the activists will talk to you about fighting, we are all too comfertable to actualy do it.

its all very well to sit here and discuss it. but the only thing that will really stop it is intervention.
you think diplomats or the UN council look on message boards for ideas?

exactly.

[acousticrock87]

Political discussion is meant for something more than intellectual stimulation? I was unaware of this.

[terminal pharmacy]

Originally Posted by bucklebone

The Islamic fundamentalists (fascists) are starting an all-out guerrilla-based world war against the sonic West that we all know and love. Does anyone care?? Or is this still a made-up war by Bush and Blair to eventually dominate the world?

think you will find it is the other way around, the west namely the us has had its explosive finger in the middle east decade upon decade. yes there are extremists, but is fighting for your religion's or your country's sovereignty a bad thing. in world war II it was called the resistance, now it is called terrorism. the means of violence have changed but the principle is the same. in the end if people would just stand up to their governements and say 'fuck you i'm not fighting you war' it would be much smaller. however the way which people are recruited in the poor demographics so they can eat and the zealots that just order their citizens into mandatory service it tragic. people who beleive peace can exist on the earth are blind and foolish. do you remember a time since you were born where there has not been a war somewhere in the world. humans are not peaceful people, we can aim for that utopia but dystopia is the reality. and make your votes count if you want things to change. but lets face it with out war all the gun toting psychos would be roaming the streets (if you are american ignore last sentence). as far as the palestine israel thing goes, i can't comment because our news does nothing but update the conflict like a sports score. what i can say though it is a whole lot more graphic because we (australia) are not involved. so it's ok to see kids being killed because it isn't our soldiers doing it.

[Daycare Nation]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

Of course not, but I do find it highly ironic & worth remarking upon that behind the press podium at the U.N. hangs the greatest work of modern art ever created, Picasso's 1937 painting Guernica, which is about the fascist bombing of the spanish town of the same name full of civilians which was the first aerial raid of its depraved & macabre type in world history. The massacre was intentionally delivered on a Monday which was the peak marketplace day of the week when people from out of town were all there & it was the first joint German/Italian bombing raid.
Guernica was hanging there on 9/11 as well, (having only just arrived) but when a U.N. press conference was given, they intentionally covered it.

Guernica is not the greatest piece of modern art. I woudn't even count it in my top 10.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

Political discussion is meant for something more than intellectual stimulation? I was unaware of this.

that's what bores me and depresses me about political discussion, it never leads to anything. humourless intellctual masturbation drives me round the bend.

[acousticrock87]

I generally have no interest in it unless there's some entertainment value. It's pretty worthless, but it can be good discussion as long as everyone realizes that. Which is usually not the case.

[Daycare Nation]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

that's what bores me and depresses me about political discussion, it never leads to anything. humourless intellctual masturbation drives me round the bend.

That's why I don't like atari's posts.

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by Daycare Nation

Guernica is not the greatest piece of modern art. I woudn't even count it in my top 10.

I'll pretend I didn't read that. You silly boy!

[Daycare Nation]

Okay, go on.

[porkmarras]

And besides,why if people are so bothered about the political climate so much they don't get involved into politics directly(and i don't mean ecomotherfuckingwarriors and charlatans of that kind).Nobody really likes some lazy sod sitting in front of a computer pontificating about the current political climate.In fact this specific type of person gets on my tits more than anyone else in this society.

[wax]

yup. talking is supposed to be the nonviolent cure to everything.
so why doesnt it ever cure anything?
you have two big powers kicking the shit out of each other.
does anyone really think those people fighting have any faith in the suits talking about the problem?

if somebody killed your kid, do you want to talk it through with them?
if someone punches you in the face, do you want to have a chat about it and see if you can resolve anything?
i dont wanna upset anyone from lebanon or israel, but this fighting is no different. to the people who are not involved, its the same as before and before that. its the same as hundreds of years ago. its the same as the next war and the one after that. a few things might be a bit different but war will always happen. and its gonna be our turn at some point again, so dont waste your breath because if your as unlucky as these poor fuckers then your gonna be fighting and getting bombed at somepoint. and yll see that all the discusion did nothing except establish that you disagree with certain people or what is right or wrong.
but the people with the power already know whats right or wrong, they just dont give a fuck.

[bucklebone]

True, political discussions read on this board amount to pissing in the ocean, but I think it helps both sides of an argument to form broader opinions and to galvanize their own opinion.

For example, I believe that this year is the beginning of a protracted World War. It is the Western World (US, Western Europe, Isreal, to-some-extent Russia) against worldwide Islamic Fascism (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and parts of Saudi Arabia, Indonisia, Somalia, Venezuela, North Korea). Everyone seems to be taking sides in this eventuality. Hopefully, China will stay sidelined.

But this event yesterday with the attempted bombing of 10 trans-Atlantic flights, could have just as easily happened instead of being thwarted. Maybe (probably) the next time it will happen. And then what.

Do we just start nuking the entire Islamic world, or do we just live with the constant threat that any bus, train or plane that we are riding on might be blown to smithereens at any time. Spain, UK, India, France, Russia, the US and Japan have all been and will continue to be targets of this Islamic Fascist mob.

[ricechex]

Here's a thought. Until we can face the truth and realize the consequences of Iraq, we're headed for World War 3. One fact people don't want to accept is Iraq was not connected to terror. Now it is. The consequences have resulted in a domino effect of anti-western, anti christian, beliefs. And it continues to build. I truly believe Bush could care less about the ramifications as long as they can make gains for themselves(Haliburton, oil, contracts etc). Their only real concern is the media and the public perception in the states of their lies and lawbreaking. There they want to just hold down the fort enough to spin everything in their attempt to create a false reality. It's a lie, all of it.

[wax]

yes. i think most people here realise that.
the point is, how does it help to talk about it?
you have to convince the masses, and to convince people who think the opposite of you is just as hard as it would be for them to convince you of their beliefs.
youre just saying things people either already know or disagree with.
changing peoples minds is the hardest thing to do.
how much effort went into the anti bush campaign in america before the last election? its arguable just how much effort really did go into it, but compared to the effort that normal people are giving to other problems like the one you are talking about, the effort was huge. and it didnt do any good.
i admire people for trying, but i think all efforts seem to be flawed in that you do not have the required motivation unless it is you personaly that has fallen victim to very real hardships. we all care, even most of the fucks who vote for bush, they think that they are doing the right thing. whatever we think about them, most are not out for hate or murder, they are just doing what they think is right. i think they are wrong, but who the fuck am i to tell them they are wrong? i would be angry as fuck if they tried to tell me i am wrong, so what right do i have to tell them? i could try to persuade them, educate, but its preaching. i expect people to leave me alone and not preach to me, so i should give the same back. you cant find a better system based on converting everyone to your way of thinking.
most normal people dont want to hurt people. but they dont have the motivation to do anything about it because they are comfortable.
i am comfortable. compared to alot of the world i think all the people on this board are comfortable. and even though we care, and we have our opinions and we know whats right, what the fuck are we gonna do?

everytime there is a revolution, it comes from the place where the problem is.

the strongest always win. and the people with the guns are the strongest unless somehow all of us little people have enough and get motivated enough to seize the power. i cannot see that happening. not in my life time.
organising against the goverment is pointless in these days of big brother. they can crush you before youve even thought about what your gonna do.

talk talk talk
all it seems to do is reasure you of your intellect.

[Hip Priest]

I think talking about it can help people see the situation rationally, rather than with the initial fear that some people experience when they hear news stories about terrorist plots etc. Also, a sensible debate, without the presence of an immature paranoid hateful troll fuck, allows us to at least understand other points of view. It doesn't have to be about changing opinions - it can just be about understanding them and/or finding common ground.

[porkmarras]

That Hip Priest is simply impossible on this messageboard because there are mentally ill ghosts going around.It would be nice but it simply isn't possible.

[Daycare Nation]

The Western world is kind of at fault for its horrible foreign policies, which led to us being attacked in the first place.

And our lame-ass President didn't even go after the people at fault. Instead he pre-emptively attacked a country which had no WMD's and no ties to Al-Qaida, thus destabilizing the middle east and causing all-out war and opening us up to even MORE terrorist attacks.

As to Israel, they don't really have a right to be there--true, they were made a sovereign nation by Europe, but they took the land from the Palestinians, who have been marginalized and bullied by Israel ever since.

[wax]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

I think talking about it can help people see the situation rationally, rather than with the initial fear that some people experience when they hear news stories about terrorist plots etc. Also, a sensible debate, without the presence of an immature paranoid hateful troll fuck, allows us to at least understand other points of view. It doesn't have to be about changing opinions - it can just be about understanding them and/or finding common ground.

i understand what you are saying, but i simply have no faith in it.
the only way to stop people fighting is to use violence yourself.

[ricechex]

Originally Posted by wax

i understand what you are saying, but i simply have no faith in it.
the only way to stop people fighting is to use violence yourself.

Yes, but only against the true terrorist enemies. If anything, Bush should have stuck to the axis of evil idea and attacked Iran. Hindsight is 20/20, but those neo-cons aren't the brightest bunch. The enemy is playin' us like a drum. We're mired down, spending hundreds of billions, and we're less secure b/c of it.

[Alex's Trip]

On 9/11 I was 10 years old. It doesn't seem that long ago...