[Rob Instigator]

The framers of the US constitution sought, fermented, and achieved armed insurrection, armed revolt.

due to this, they understood the necessity of a population being armed if it so desired. The Revolutionary war against the british was fought for a while, befiore France provided guns and money, by regular people with their personal weapons, rifles, muskets, pitchforks, etc.

regardless of what anyone tries to spin, an armed citizenry SCARES the powers that be, and the people that wish to retain that power in the hands of a few.

no one talks about this stuff because it is easier to scare people by detailing the relatively few instances where people are hurt by guns or killed accidentally etc.

The USA is a violent, still-young nation, and most of the murders occur not because there is a gun handy, but because some idiot decides to kill someone.

The tales of the "Old West" seem to imply that guns = lawlesness, but that is bullshit. The actual homicide records for those days show a far far lesser rate of murder than now. EVERYONE was armed back then, for hunting food, for protecting from bandits and thieves (no police patrols back in da day), for fighting the natives, and for joining up possees and militias if needed, which was needed during the war of 1812, the mexican american wars, civil war, etc.

taking away guns to protect people is like taking away condoms to keep people from having sex.

[Rob Instigator]

I have friends who carry concealed guns, with full [permits and training, who have stopped hold-ups, stopped rapes, just by being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. they were not put on the news

the news exists solely to SCARE THE POPULACE.
people rescuing people dioes not fit that mold.

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

I don't think there is a "pro gun movement", rather an "anti gun movement". Hasn't the right to bear arms always been a part of this countries constitution..... a privilege reserved to any law abiding citizen?

Or course there is a pro gun movement. NRA??? Hello???

[Rob Instigator]

one more thing.

I do not own a gun, nor will I likely ever own one.

I fear IDIOTS, not guns. IDIOTS will use a gun/knife/weapon just because it is avialable. They are IDIOTS. One cannot legislate against that by trying to keep the weapons from IDIOTS. We should ligislate better education. It would cost just as much, maybe less.

[!@#$%!]

The argument in the USA is a little different than in another countries.

First, as a colony, this country was constantly at war with indians. The colonists would push the indians out and the indians would come and raid your village. There was also a lot of hunting, particularly as people expanded into "untamed" areas where game was abundant.

As a result, by the time of the American revolution, pretty much everyone owned a gun, or guns, for all sorts of purposes (shooting indians, shooting buffalo, shooting ducks).

Come the revolution, there wasn't much of a standing army: a large portion of the fight was done by armed militias, that is, civilians with their hunting weapons using guerrilla tactics to wear down the better-equipped ingleses. If it wasn't for the help of a regular army like the French one, we would have had our asses kicked by the limeys.

So right at the birth of the country you have the individual ownership of guns as a primary feature.

Now remember these were independent colonies, each with their own laws and customs etc. This is not a monolithic country, in spite of what it may look from abroad. It was 13 states, some had slaves, some were free states, some were "commonwealths", each with their own laws. So when the constitution was written, the states (former colonies) feared too much control from the central government, and the Bill of Rights was created to keep the central power from growing too strong. That's where the 2nd amendment belongs.

Now, the second amendment says

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

What does that exactly say? It's not completely clear. The way I read it is that the people have the right to bear arms in the context of A WELL ORGANIZED MILITIA. Which brings us back to the Minutemen of the independence. That seems rational and parallels the weapon ownership of the citizen-soldiers of Switzerland. Homicide rate in Switzerland: 1.2 per 100,000 (lower than England). Now, these militia weapons are fully automatic military issue guns, truly dangerous shit, and everyone keeps one at home. And yet their murder rate is lower than gun-free England, Belgium, France, and gun-rational Canada.

Now, the USA after its creation expanded quickly into Native-owned territory. Many many indians were exterminated, either by military action or by biological warfare (whiskey, smallpox) and the settlers who colonized those lands were out in the middle of nowhere without the protection of an urban environment-- facing dangers such as indian raids, roaming criminals, and the occasional wild animal (mostly wolves attacking cattle, on which their livelihood depended). There ware also territorial disputes, water access disputes, and very little law enforcement. Your survival would often depend on hunting. The bottom line: everybody had guns in the "wild west" during the XIX century.

So today we still have this pioneer mentality where people think of their home in the suburbs as their "homestead" in the prairie even when such days are gone; but culture is a powerful thing and doesn't go away so quickly. Add to that the history of racial violence, civil war, a "do it yourself" mentality, and the notion that the government is instrusive, and you're going to have a slightly paranoid people who think their self protection is mostly in their own hands. Therefore if you take guns away you'll have people thinking they are defenseless agains thiefs and dark people who will come to rape their daughters in the night.

So while the dispute of the second amendment has been going on forever (does it protect the rights of gun ownership under a militia, or individual gun use for self defense?), the supreme court recently ruled that it was an issue of self-defense in the home (and the car, which is an extension of your home) and lifted the ban on gun ownership in the District of Columbia (which is under federal rule).

So, while big cities might find guns repellent and only good for criminal activities (New York is still banning guns for example), "Middle America" loves its guns because without them, they feel, they are alone in the night.

I'll add one thing-- I have a cabin in a very remote area away from the city and emergency services, and I keep a fucking rifle next to the bed when I'm there. Maybe I'm paranoid, but we've had people show up uninvited on our road (looking for a place to drink or get high); and getting such visits at 3 am is scary and creepy, especially considering there is some meth use in the area. You'd want a gun if you lived there, I swear.

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by ploesj

most safety advisors will tell you that in case of robbery or theft, it's way safer to just give the robber what he wants instead of trying to defend yourself. a criminal is indeed more likely to be better at handling a gun (as knox already stated) and most material posessions can be replaced. i heard someone saying it like this: 'would you really want to get severely injured and lose your life, just to keep your wallet? you'll probably end up losing it anyway'

just now a truck has been carjacked by armed men, who then fired military-style funs at the policemen chasing them. it is the next one in a series of incidents with criminals being heavily armed and using those weapons. police states that criminals are getting younger, more reckless, and more eager to shoot. the truck driver survived because he gave up his truck and didn't try to fight.

Exactly. Pro gun Americans are such paranoid pussies. They have been scared into owning them because they have actually been brainwashed to believe they need to own them.

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

The argument in the USA is a little different than in another countries.

First, as a colony, this country was constantly at war with indians. The colonists would push the indians out and the indians would come and raid your village. There was also a lot of hunting, particularly as people expanded into "untamed" areas where game was abundant.

As a result, by the time of the American revolution, pretty much everyone owned a gun, or guns, for all sorts of purposes (shooting indians, shooting buffalo, shooting ducks).

Come the revolution, there wasn't much of a standing army: a large portion of the fight was done by armed militias, that is, civilians with their hunting weapons using guerrilla tactics to wear down the better-equipped ingleses. If it wasn't for the help of a regular army like the French one, we would have had our asses kicked by the limeys.

So right at the birth of the country you have the individual use of handguns as a primary feature.

Now remember these were independent colonies, each with their own laws and customs etc. When the constitution was written, the states (former colonies) feared too much control from the central government and the Bill of Rights was created. That's where the 2nd amendment belongs.

Now the second amendment says

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

What does that exactly say? It's not completely clear. The way I read it is that the people have the right to bear arms in the context of A WELL ORGANIZED MILITIA. Which brings us back to the Minutemen of the independence. That seems rational and parallels the weapon ownership of the citizen-soldiers of Switzerland. Homicide rate in Switzerland: 1/2 per 100,000 (lower than England). Now, these militia weapons are fully automatic military issue guns, truly dangerous shit, and everyone keeps one at home. And yet their murder rate is lower than gun-free England, Belgium, France, and gun-rational Canada.

Now, the USA after its creation expanded quickly into Native-owned territory. Many many indians were exterminated, either by military action or by biological warfare (whiskey, smallpox) and the settlers who colonized those lands were out in the middle of nowhere without the protection of an urban environment-- facing dangers such as indian raids, roaming criminals, and the occasional wild animal (mostly wolves attacking cattle, on which their livelihood depended). There ware also territorial disputes, water access disputes, and very little law enforcement. The bottom line: everybody had guns in the "wild west" during the XIX century.

So we have this pioneer mentality where people think of their home in the suburbs as their "homestead" in the prairie even when such days are gone; but culture is a powerful thing and doesn't go away so quickly. Add to that the history of racial violence, civil war, a "do it yourself" mentality, and the notion that the government is instrusive, and you're going to have a slightly paranoid people who think their self protection is in their own hands. Therefore if you take guns away you'll have people thinking they are defenseless agains thiefs and dark people who will come to rape their daughters in the night.

So while the dispute of the second amendment has been going on forever (does it protect the rights of gun ownership under a militia, or individual gun use for self defense?), the supreme court recently ruled that it was an issue of self-defense in the home (and the car, which is an extension of your home) and lifted the ban on gun ownership in the District of Columbia (which is under federal rule).

So, while big cities might find guns repellent and only good for criminal activities (New York is still banning guns), "Middle America" loves its guns because without them, they feel, they are alone in the night.

I'll add one thing-- I have a cabin in a very remote area away from the city and emergency services, and I keep a fucking rifle next to the bed when I'm there. Maybe I'm paranoid, but we've had people show up uninvited on our road (looking for a place to drink or get high); and getting such visits at 3 am is scary and creepy, especially considering there is some meth use in the area. You'd want a gun if you lived there, I swear.

The redcoats aren't coming anymore. Time to lay down the archaic tools of personal destruction. It would bring our murder rates WAY down.

[Rob Instigator]

too true.

Think of where I live, Houston TX. This city has about 4-5 million people in it and the surrounding county.

There are around 3500 Houston Police Department cops. (There is a 1000 cop shortage they cannot seem to fill)
There are aropund 1600 Harris County Sherrif deputies.

That is about 5000 law officers patrolling and "protecting" (HA!) the 5 MILLION inhabitants.

self-defense is a right and an imperative. the defnse of one's neighbor is a right and an imperative.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by hevusa

The redcoats aren't coming anymore. Time to lay down the archaic tools of personal destruction. It would bring our murder rates WAY down.

fuck the pussy redcoats.

what about the chinese? The Iranians? the North Koreans?

You did not see the FEd government timely and appropriate reaction to 9/11? (HA!)
You did not see the Fed Government's timely reaction to the Katrina disaster? (the COPS were shooting terrified survivors in case you did not read about it)

90% of the US military is stationed overseas, and in many instances halfway around the world.

FUCK man, we are even sending out National Guardsmen and State National Guardsmen to Iraq and Afghanistan cuz there are not enough soldiers to go around with all the HUNDREDS of military bases the usa has around the world.

just because no country has attacked the USA since pearl harbor does not mean it won;t happen TOMORROW

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

fuck the pussy redcoats.

what about the chinese? The Iranians? the North Koreans?

You did not see the FEd government timely and appropriate reaction to 9/11? (HA!)
You did not see the Fed Government's timely reaction to the Katrina disaster? (the COPS were shooting terrified survivors in case you did not read about it)

90% of the US military is stationed overseas, and in many instances halfway around the world.

FUCK man, we are even sending out National Guardsmen and State National Guardsmen to Iraq and Afghanistan cuz there are not enough soldiers to go around with all the HUNDREDS of military bases the usa has around the world.

just because no country has attacked the USA since pearl harbor does not mean it won;t happen TOMORROW

And the redneck, republican, Jesus fearing, bud light drinking, gun toting motherfuckers are going to save us? You have been watching too many movies son.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by hevusa

The redcoats aren't coming anymore. Time to lay down the archaic tools of personal destruction. It would bring our murder rates WAY down.

i wasn't talking about the redcoats are coming, i was talking about how the laws of the country were framed when the redcoats had just come and that's why the gun laws are there.

in europe at some point only the nobility was allowed to bear arms, same as japan-- different history, different culture.

in america, you didn't have to be a member of the elite to get yourself a weapon, and the people believe it's their democratic right to arm themselves as they please.

what i'm saying is, it's a matter of CULTURE, not of government policy.

you can't legislate a deeply ingrained culture out of a country. we tried that in the XIX century and it required a civil war to get rid of slavery.

the reason why you think so anti-gun is because you live in an urban area with an anti-gun culture. go live in a montana ranch for a while and you might change your mind.

i'm actually wary of guns, i think they should be licensed and strictly regulated, but what i'm saying is that the issue here, CULTURALLY, is not as black and white as european boardies assume, it's not just a matter of a central government deciding what the people will do and the people are going to be "mmyeah ok".

[chicka]

one young kid finding Daddy's gun and playing with it and kills himself or a friend is one to many deaths for me. I realize that probably 95% of gun owners are smart and lock their weapons away where the kids can't get at them. Some idiots don't though and that is too much. Some weapons get stolen by criminals but nowhere near like it was in the sixties and seventies before all this heavy safes to lock them in and the safeties that have for weapons as well. yet as stated States with less gun control laws do have less crimes it's baffling. The only real solution is no guns what so ever and we know that ain't happen any time soon. So at the moment the best solution is ban all high power high bullet count weapons. All guns have to be tamper proof to having their clips adjusted for high bullet count.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by hevusa

And the redneck, republican, Jesus fearing, bud light drinking, gun toting motherfuckers are going to save us? You have been watching too many movies son.

so why is your stereotyping any different than theirs?

why wouldn't YOU join THEM to fight against an invader? or a tyrannical government?

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

What does that exactly say? It's not completely clear. The way I read it is that the people have the right to bear arms in the context of A WELL ORGANIZED MILITIA.

You would think so, however...

The Supreme Court, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 290 (2008), ruled as follows:
The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home....The District's ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense.

source: wikipedia

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

so why is your stereotyping any different than theirs?

why wouldn't YOU join THEM to fight against an invader? or a tyrannical government?

if we're going to fight invaders we should have a swiss-style militia with military grade weapons stored in our homes.

military weapons (mainly, automatic high caliber assault rifles) are banned from private ownership in the USA though.

can you imagine if everyone had an M16 rifle in their closet? jeezus. that would make me truly paranoid.

"don't turn the music too loud or it will piss off the neighbor..."

"oh, there are those two arguing again, everyone duck & cover..."

"you're fired... no no no you're not fired, you'll just work from home, doing what you want, we'll double your pay...."

[ann ashtray]

I live in the south. I know many, many people with guns. Seldom do you ever even actually see the guns. Pistols that stay stashed away. Rifles that stay locked in cabinets or layeth unloaded against a wall.

I have no issues with them. They keep the deer population at a safe(er) number. I know people that have been in serious accidents (know of some that have died) because of deer running across the street and suddenly becoming frozen stiff by oncoming headlights, driver's not noticing the glowing eyes until far too late.

Guns have done some great things for us.

How many people are murdered via being stabbed? SHould there be a ban on knives? Lead pipe?

I think it was Florida...some state....that put a ban on handguns for a while, then due to a growing crime rate made 'em legal again...the crime rate then proceeded to drop.

One is LESS likely to break into yr house if they think might you have a gun. I for one think it should be 100 percent legal to shoot someone in the face that has broke into my house and has no business being here.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by hevusa

And the redneck, republican, Jesus fearing, bud light drinking, gun toting motherfuckers are going to save us? You have been watching too many movies son.

fail.

[hevusa]

It is funny that the areas in America that have the least amount of crime with lower populations have the most guns. Stupid, paranoid motherfuckers need to calm down. Easy access to guns = world leading gun violence rates. DUH

If you think unorganized civilians with guns could do anything against a modern military you are fucking out of your mind.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

I live in the south. I know many, many people with guns. Seldom do you ever even actually see the guns. Pistols that stay stashed away. Rifles that stay locked in cabinets or layeth unloaded against a wall.

I have no issues with them. They keep the deer population at a safe(er) number. I know people that have been in serious accidents (know of some that have died) because of deer running across the street and suddenly becoming frozen stiff by oncoming headlights, driver's not noticing the glowing eyes until far too late.

Guns have done some great things for us.

How many people are murdered via being stabbed? SHould there be a ban on knives? Lead pipe?

I think it was Florida...some state....that put a ban on handguns for a while, then due to a growing crime rate made 'em legal again...the crime rate then proceeded to drop.

One is LESS likely to break into yr house if they think might you have a gun. I for one think it should be 100 percent legal to shoot someone in the face that has broke into my house and has no business being here.

epic fail.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by jon boy

epic fail.

explain.