[Glice]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...urch-sex-abuse
"By 2002 the then cardinal had signed what critics claim was an incitement to the obstruction of justice. A letter he circulated to bishops the previous year reminded them that internal church inquiries into certain serious offences were covered by what is known as papal secrecy, for which the penalty is excommunication."

Read this decree
http://www.catholiccincinnati.org/fi...pdf/Decree.pdf

it states that the church will comply with civil cases but not that it will give up it's priests to be tried. They will be handled INTERNALLY.

The decree is from the Archdiocese of Cincinnati; it's likely Papal sanctioned, but not official Catholic doctrine. It's signed by Pilarcyzk, and he's definitely one of the big guns. The Vatican are often cunts; the Holy See is often restrictive and protective. The Church, in what I've recently read of Vatican II, is pretty unequivocal on its stance on paedophiliac priests. The problem is that the practise often hasn't married up. They advocate excommunication of any offending priest, as recently re-capitulated in the letter to the Irish. If you can find me a Papal document contradicting that, rather than a letter of advice to a local diocese, I'd be appreciative.

Edit: meh, I'm kind of talking shit here.

[Rob Instigator]

I will. there was one in the 70's, decreeing that all cases such as these were to be handled internally ONLY, without allowing the authorities to take away the priests. That HAS changed in recent years, but if you read their legalese, you can see that it still covers the priests' asses

[knox]

Originally Posted by EVOLghost

I like pbradleys theory better. I don't thnk they go specifically brood the priesthood to get to little boys. I don't think pedophiles think that deeply to gettin close to children...well maybe 1 or 2 will come up with a devious plan. But yeah the thought of them not gettng any does make sense as to why they chose little boys(alter boys I assume?)

edit: @Knox

except that what i said is a fact not a theory. peadophiles do search for opportunities to fulfill their fetish deliberately, just do a little research and you will find it. I think there was a documentary that illustrated it quite well, something about friedman.

none of us know the extent of child or sexual abuse in the church, one can only imagine from things we hear. But bear in mind we don't know the extent of child abuse in schools, hospitals, and homes. Fact is it happens more often whitin family, and for that reason is not often reported. So to say it happens more in the church than anywhere else is naive.

it could be that the church doesn't do much to punish them, but aren't they regular citizens that can be considered criminally responsible? it is a crime and it is a matter that has to be dealt with involving the police and law, a church is not the appropriate institution to punish.

[chicka]

Here in Massachusetts we sent an offending priest to jail John Goeghan who
was defrocked. He was latter killed the guards were believed to be in on it and I don't recall his killer get more than a slap on the hand. He was already doing life anyways if I'm not mistaken.

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by knox

it could be that the church doesn't do much to punish them, but aren't they regular citizens that can be considered criminally responsible?.

Supposedly GWB gave the Pope a get out of jail card.

These creeps work at the highest levels of govt. They help each other where they can and use blackmail where they can't. Look at the case of Holly Greig in Scotland. The fucking local sheriff was raping this little girl.

Or the pedo death squad in the US who recently killed a US Senator
http://www.moneyteachers.org/Nancy.Schaefer.htm

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pbradley

I don't know anything about the psychology of pedophilia but it seems rather silly to me to think that pedophiles are anything like dedicated, shadow predators trying to get close to kids, like terrorist cells living near public buildings. I think celibacy, an unnatural practice if there ever was one, leads to pedophilia in some instances.

pedophilia and celibacy are not in a causative relationship, they might coincide, but they are not directly related. By definition, celibacy is NOT pedophilia which is a sexual attraction to children, where as celibacy is a lifestyle devoid of sexuality and sexual expression. Any priest who molests children is therefore NOT A CELIBATE! He is a child molester, there is a difference.

How can they be celibate if they are having sexual activity with children?

FURTHER ANY PRIEST WHO STARTS MOLESTING CHILDREN CLEARLY DOES NOT TAKE CELIBACY SERIOUS. Its not like he was do diehard about his celibacy that he had sex with kids because he couldn't have sex with women.

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

I think they DEFINITELY need to allow priests to marry, and they need to ban any member of the church who has committed a pedophilic act.

But in defense of the Catholic Church, there are other organizations with just as bad, if not worse pedophilia problems. In the fields of education and healthcare for instance. Sexual abuse is rampant in schools and hospitals.

I agree. In Orthodox most priests are married, and most parishes prefer married clergy. Only monks are celibate, and in Orthodox monks are not technically officiating priests, and are not necessarily even authorized to perform sacraments of Confession and Communion..

and the Church most definitely should have acted different.

Originally Posted by EVOLghost

But yeah the thought of them not gettng any does make sense as to why they chose little boys(alter boys I assume?)

edit: @Knox

you must seriously be joking. So all celibates naturally are inclined to homosexual pedophilia? Not quite.. if anything, celibacy might provoke a bunch of horny priests who sleep with parishioners (not an unknown happening) but this by no means explains the pedophilia. Celibates would be attracts to teenage girls and housewives, and I do believe altar boys are not of that description.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

sexual abuse in hospitals and schools is not covered up by the church, only to have the pedophile FUCK transferred to a different parish where he will do it again and again, and if caught, he will go to yet another parish, or the vatican will ship the pedo fuck to south america or africa where there are minimal authorities.

BIG difference.

fuck all that shit.

TRUTH but ROB, please do not forget that the VAST majority of pedophile priests get arrested and prosecuted within the 'secular' justice system, precisely because they are breaking serious laws. The Church is not judicially responsible for this error, and the law and courts are EXTREMELY active in pursuing these cases, many many priests get prosecuted for these unspeakable evil crimes.. in the confessionary no less! my god my god...

but rest assured, these scum bags are not entirely free handed, big brother watches them as much as us..

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by PAULYBEE2656

as regards the clergy matrrying. the only reason that the clergy take a vow of celibacy is to do with land ownership. if a priest married, and the marraige broke down, the wife could take away half the land by law..the land which is owned by the church...celibacy guaranteed that all church land and money remained in the church..this law has been in force for years and isnt likely to change at all..again ...devoid of any reality!

That is the most delightful socio-theological insight I have seen in a long time.. simply revelatory, we should chat more.

The Orthodox Church simplified this EXACT problem,individual parish priests are NOT land-owners for the Church, only Bishops (who are celibate, generally elevated from the monks) are land owners, more like trustees actually, and it has been this way for 1400 years. This takes the complication out of married clergy, which are quite common in Greece, Russia, Armenia, Georgia, the Middle East like Syria and Jordan, and of course Ethiopia.
This is essentially a politico-historical issue, regarding the differences between Anglo/Northern European (ie, Catholic/Protestant) land ownership traditions and Eastern/Asian (ie, Orthodox Christian/Muslim) land ownership. The issue with the vulnerability to pedophilia as a truly unintended consequence is interesting indeed.

[RanaldoNecro]

I cannot make a judgement on what is happening in different countries regarding this issue.

But I think it is made out to justify actions of some of those in power. Both 'low' media and police agencies go after people who they do not like. Look at Pete Townsend. His 'reputation' was smeared by 'allegations' that haven't been proven in a court of law. Also, taking peoples photos from their computers is a serious breach of rights. If it is not proven in a court of law that don't believe no cop and media story.

There are people on both sides of the Atlantic who do not like non-conformists. People should just stop going to church and find something else to worship.

[RanaldoNecro]

My above point is also that, allegations and such usually have political goals.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by RanaldoNecro

There are people on both sides of the Atlantic who do not like non-conformists. People should just stop going to church and find something else to worship.

au contrair..

by this same logic, it would inevitably become the renegade thing to go back to church as it becomes conformity not to..
the reality is that people should do what they want as you say, but news flash, did you ever think that some people actually want to go to church and would be happy if their clergy were not scumbags? after all, I hardly believe over 1 billion (Catholics) could be that coerced, and further the billions of others who ascribe to one religious institution or another.


the issue here is transparency and accountability, not the very purpose and validity of the existence of the Church itself.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by artsygrrl

Just curoius to hear yr thoughts on this subject.

shoot them in the back of the fucking head?

i agree w/ pbradders in the role of celibacy but not necessarily as a way to derange a sane man (though it might happen)-- it's a magnet for weirdos and a place to hide though.

back home in rural areas priests will often have a wife & family etc.

of course, there are family men who fuck children, as well, without even being priests.

hang them by the nutsacs

[FreshChops]

I don't ever hear about "legal" consequences that these priest endure. I might be wrong, but it seems like the sum of these pedophiles consequences amounts to.... either they are booted from church, or not, or suspended, or relocated, etc.....

Are these guys exempt from the legal system? Do they go to real people jail too?

[jon boy]

what i dont understand is how one person, say pete townsend can admit d/l'ing child porn yet he is still widely liked and someone else famous does the same, say chris langham and he is widely disliked?

[RanaldoNecro]

[quote=jon boy]what i dont understand is how one person, say pete townsend can admit d/l'ing child porn yet he is still widely liked and someone else famous does the same, say chris langham and he is widely disliked?

It probably has to do with their public image, class status etc. The whole Pete Townsend thing came across right from the start as him a willing participant. Either to shed light in the public sphere about the issue and use himself as a sacraficial lamb.

The sad thing is that you can't even speak about the subject in an intelligent manner without somehow being deemed guilty in the public eyes.

IMHO, this issue is similar to McCarthyism in the US in the 40's.

[RanaldoNecro]

the issue here is transparency and accountability, not the very purpose and validity of the existence of the Church itself.

I couldn't agree more. Transparency is huge.

[RanaldoNecro]

Though this behaviour of some priests is despicable, the moral climate of the times is also a factor. As humans we are not immune to others behaviour around us.

To say that a priest in any congregation shares an enormus responsibilty is an understatement. And that people usually take them granted is also a given. It is juvenile to think that these actions happen in a vacuum without the considerations of the outside world. In other words, IMO, some of these behaviors seem like a retaliation.

[PAULYBEE2656]

justice?

i know this fucker....

and knew this bastard....this guy got away with it by suicide1 i hate the word but c**t

(in)famous case local to me in ireland

some viewing for further education

suing the pope (bbc documentary made by local wexford man who was a victim of one of the afforementioned "holymen".

sex , crimes and the vatican (torrent) bbc documentary on the whole big fucking joke that has become the catholic church.

what really annopys me is that the catholic church, again i can only speak locally.... for generations has had its people put their trust in it. it got to a stage, not too long ago, i know people this has happened to, that no one would believe them that a 12 year old boy had been interfeered with by a parish piest. "you cant say that! dont go to the gards (irish police), what will the neighbours say". and now these same parishioners still, deeply faithful, are now questioning even the good priests. and believe me there are many many good men who are preists. its sickening and the catholic church in ireland is fucked. attendances are dropping, the local church collection is dropping and people of every age and creed are hurt by it. and the the pope writes a letter eventually to say "sorry". talk about rubbing salt in the wounds...

just on a point, i myself have never been a victim of the abuse but i do know people who have. i consider myself extremely lucky given hindsight as fr sean fortune used to be one of my "media" lecturers in a course i did after school.

anyway, im leaving this thread, click on the links if you wish.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

pedophilia and celibacy are not in a causative relationship, they might coincide, but they are not directly related.

I did not say they were directly related.

And I believe there is a lot to be said about the difference between institutionalized celibacy and celibacy per se.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

By definition, celibacy is NOT pedophilia which is a sexual attraction to children, where as celibacy is a lifestyle devoid of sexuality and sexual expression.

Wait, I also said that celibacy is pedophilia? Goddamn.

[chicka]

The Catholic church is loosing members and donations big time. In the last two years they have closed down 4 different parrishes here in Worcester. Less and less men are joining the priesthood. The need to allow women to become priests for one. Judging by the number of times I've heard NO in my life time women should have no problems practicing celibacy.

Even more so that the sexual problem the catholic faith faces the fact that their God is a punishing God well people don't want to hear that shit. They want a loving God.....

[knox]

Originally Posted by jon boy

what i dont understand is how one person, say pete townsend can admit d/l'ing child porn yet he is still widely liked and someone else famous does the same, say chris langham and he is widely disliked?

yeah.

or didn't woody allen marry his adopted daughter as soon as she turned 18?
which means.

and nobody cares.