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#21 | |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 18,510
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So long as they bring pastrami and cheesesteaks I'm good with that. It's true that extremism in Iraq is largely the result of our being there but to think that it'll simply disappear if we go is not realistic. We've created a situation and now we're bound to resolve it. I wasn't in favour of the invasion from the beginning, and i'm still not. But now that it's happened we need to see things through, however long that takes and however many coalition lives are lost in the process. You play with fire you're gonna get burned, so to speak. |
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#22 |
the end of the ugly
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,075
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here's the way i see it:
"That government is simply not providing leadership worthy of the considerable sacrifice of our forces, and this has to change immediately," said Sen. John Warner, the influential former chairman of the Armed Services Committee.
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"I said I didnt mean to take up all your sweet time Ill give it right back one of these days If I dont meet you no more in this world then uh Ill meet ya on the next one And dont be late " -Jimi Hendrix ...And me just another dream theory, lost inside your eye "when my mind's uncertain my body decides what it will do to get through the hell of the night as I trip on the ocean that leads through your eyes well my eyes can't wait til they finally see through you" |
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#23 | |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 18,510
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I absolutely agree with that. |
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#24 |
stalker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 505
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Pull all the troops out, and let the Iraqis sort it out amongst themselves with liberal doses of interference from Syria and Iran
Even better, send all the politicians who voted to go to war over there and let them keep the peace |
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#25 | |||
bad moon rising
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 178
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No, not a colony, and no permanent force. American troops should stay as long as the goverment of Iraq wishes and it's necessary. If the iraqi goverment says get out, they should leave as soon as possible. And that's exactly how it is. At the moment, the iraqi government wants american troops to stay, as american presence in iraq benefits iraqi stability while a withdrawl would lead to the collapse of iraq. Quote:
The error was already committed not with the invasion, but with the half-hearted invasion of 1991 which didn't topple the baathist government out of fear of instability. Or the error was baathist take-over in 1968. It's not like everything was working in the right direction prior to march 2003. Quit the contrary: Baathism would not have gone away by isolating Iraq for another decade or two, it would only have prolonged the desolate sitution created by Saddam's regime, which destroyed iraqi society. The error of 1991 was that US politics in the region were aimed at keeping the status quo, i.e. "stability", no matter what that ment to the people living under this "stability - despotism. America's position at that time could be summed up as: As long as the oil flows, let those arabs live under dictators and despots, we don't care for their freedom. That view had to be changed after 9/11 because in the post-911 world, the status quo works against the west. The despotic regimes of the middle east as well as non-state actors of those countries use anti-western, anti-jewish and islamist propaganda to focus the aggressive potential of their youth against America and her allies, which creates the current rise of terrorism.. The regimes to that to prevent arab youth to fight the facist goverments of their home countries. Non-state actors do it out of islamist supremacy ideology. They hate the kuffar west, they hate democracy and freedom, gay bars and religious tolerance, gender equality and ham sandwhiches, mixed school classes and everything else that is against their 632 A.D. version of Islam. But in my opinion, religion plays only a minor role in this conflict. It's merely an excuse for killing. The source of the hatred lies not in the religion, but in the political, demographic and economic sitution in the countries of the middle east. The hatred against the west is a result of the desolate situation of their failed state home countries, which offer no positions in society to their angry youth. Islamic supremacy offers what they're looking for: An ideology which "explains" their suffering, by putting the blame on the jews and the west, which in this ideology have conspired against the world of islam and are keeping it down. Their ambition turns into violence, terrorism, and genocide, as happened before in other parts of the world. Quote:
Actually, I agree: an U.S. victory in Iraq, a successful, stable iraqi democracy won't do much to help the situation in Europe. But it's the only hope for Iraq's population. And it's not a lost cause. That's pure defatism. |
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#26 | ||
bad moon rising
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 178
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I disagree that the situation was created by us. Or only by us. The US surely did some stupid things after the successful invasion which didn't help, but extremism in Iraq is to a large part a result of the destruction of Iraqi society by Baathism, which is/was the arab version of National Socialism. The baathist regime terrorized iraqi population for decades. Sunni minority ruled the shia arabs with an iron fist, so no wonder there's a lot of animosity between those two sects. Saddam tortured and killed people in a way that makes the post-invasion Abu Gheirab torture scandal look like Disney Land. Pre-March 2003 Iraq was a totalitarian police state that used terror and torture to control every aspect of people's life. Everyone had to live in constant fear, and one wrong word you utered could lead to being visited at night by secret police and taken away, than being tortured to death. But not only you, but your whole family could be slaughtered for one wrong or suspicious action by a member of the family. Quote:
I wasn't neither, but back then, I didn't know much about Iraq anyways. I was just following an uneducated reflex.. |
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