[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

It's probably just my own personal bitterness, but it's just that I can't stand it when people say someone like Haino is talentless--and I know a lot of people who think that. It's one thing to not like an artist--that's fine--but I can't stand seeing a lifetime of hard work and genuine heart like that being shoved into the same corner as someone screwing around with an amp in the back room every once in a while. There's a difference, but a lot of people don't recognize it, so I think intellectualizing it somehow "avenges" them, and I've convinced people to at least appreciate Haino in that light. They don't need to like it, but it seems wrong for them to call it talentless.

well anyone who thinks haino is talentless is an idiot, but then knowledge of music theory is not a way to measure talent either.

[batreleaser]

yeah ive studies music theory at school, and to be honest, for the most part it bored. i found that when im trying to understand and read and write music, the joy of making music is somewhat lost. id much rather just chill out, lite a joint or somethin, sit down with my guitar, and start messing around with chords and riffs and wait untill i find something special. but, my knowledge of music, well, i have some. enough id say.

[Rob Instigator]

I know theory, and playing, and performing, and song construction, and harmonizing, and all that shit. it benefits my appreciateion of complex music, and does nothing for my appreciation of simple music., which I enjoy on a visceral level.

sonic youth's 12 tone experiments versus dead kennedy's "dog bite" for instance

Anyone who seriously thinks that they can play in a good band by just sitting down and talking about it without playing their instruments first is a seriously misguided person. I can't see many people delivering any goods if they just sit down 'imagining' what it's like to play an instrument or 'theorising' shit all the time that ultimately doesn't translate into good records/ live gigs etc.

I'm surprised Sonic Youth get lumped into the 'music theory' thing, since, by their own admission, they have never been one of those bands to just sit down and decide to make music. They just did and took it from there.

[Rob Instigator]

that is not what music theory is sarramkrop.

music theory helps you construct your music as you are writing it, it is a concurrent process, it can help to create a finely crafted song a la Steely dan or it can help to create the duodecatonic freakouts of schoenberg or Bartok's freaked out quartets.

a little knowledge of music thery can make a bland rock song really ZING, really shine.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

that is not what music theory is sarramkrop.

music theory helps you construct your music as you are writing it, it is a concurrent process, it can help to c5reate a finely crafted song a la Steely dan or it can help to create the duodecatnic freakouts of schoenberg or Bartok's freaked out quartets.

I know very well what music theory is, you patronising git.

It's rock music and all its guises I'm talking about here, so the whole debate about, erm , important music is one that is irrelevant to what i posted earlier.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

a little knowledge of music thery can make a bland rock song really ZING, really shine.

BULLSHIT.

[MellySingsDoom]

Well, I know how the E major scale goes. Will that do?

*silence*

I'll get me coat.

Technique and theory can be dead useful to getting a musician to get to a place where they can truly express themselves (whether it be John Coltrane or Diamanda Galas), but of course it's the initial emotional/visceral passion from the musician that should count first and foremost.

As for the vast hordes of sub-sub-sub-Page/Clapton/Yngwie widdle merchants that have befouled the air over the years, they should either be forced to spend a year in retreat listening to nothing but The Shaggs, or be nibbled to death by particularly amorous panda bears.

[MellySingsDoom]

*Melly high-fives sarramkrop, before falling asleep on his keyboard*

I've deleted that post because I bet then you'd get the usual debate about ''higher'' forms of music other than rock etc. You know what i mean, though, since we've had similar conversations before.

high-five anyway!

[atsonicpark]

Just thinking of people I would consider musical geniuses... beefheart, sun city girls, jandek, john fahey... none of those people had any musical training whatsoever and probably knew jack shit about theory...

But I think most people need a LITTLE bit of theory, in the same way most people need religion. It's good to not go into things completely blind. If you're not going to be a technical virtuoso, at least have plenty of great ideas...

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

BULLSHIT.

it is true! that is where many great ideas come from! once you know the musical "rules" yuo know the very best way to break the aforementioned rules to achieve the effect you desire.

[Rob Instigator]

knowing jack shit about theory when you start is a different deal than staying ignorant about theory as you progress. captai beefheart, jandek, etc, all became better "players" just because you cannot help but learn theory as you progress in songwriting and ideas and readinga bout music and such.

Maybe it's me but technical ability is not necessarily tied up to theoretical knowledge. Anyone is able to operate machinery the correct way without having a particualrly insightful knowledge of the mechanics that make up the machinery itself, so being a skilful musician can and does exist without any particular knowledge of theory. If you read the instructions of something to make it work, you're not exactly reading about the theory that created it, are you?

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

knowing jack shit about theory when you start is a different deal than staying ignorant about theory as you progress. captai beefheart, jandek, etc, all became better "players" just because you cannot help but learn theory as you progress in songwriting and ideas and readinga bout music and such.

Either you can't articulate yourself when need be or you are just making this stuff up. Can you provide anything that documents any association of music theory with any of the names that you've mentioned?

[Rob Instigator]

music theory is just the study of tones and sounds and their spatio/sonic relationship. some tone combinations create a sense of peace in our ears, some create love, some create urgency, etc. balladeers and shit ahve been using the exact same 3-4 chord progressions for centuries because these set chord progressions, by their inherent sonic quality, affect humans the same every day, every century.
even the most basic player is using music theory whether he/she knows it or not.

a player of an instrument cannot help but learn some basic music theory just by virtue of practice and exposure to playing different new pieces.

Not at all. I'm surprised you of all people being a Beatles fan would come up with that sort of stuff. Answer the question i've asked earlier: do you have any proof that Beefhart or Jandek are theory-savvy musicians?

[Rob Instigator]

did I say they were theory savvy? re-read my post. I said that due to playing an inst4rument they have learned some music theory. it HAPPENS. especially if you are a songwriter, and not just a player/performer.

Paul MacCartney famously can't read music, or certainly couldn't while he was in The Beatles. Duh? What are you trying to say there?

[Rob Instigator]

reading mnusic is not music theory. understanding the relationships between chords, tones, harmonies, etc, IS music theory and paul learned a LOT through his playing.