[khchris(original)]

Originally Posted by chabib

khchris... the kids were running around in the bathroom. it turned out that some jackass who worked at the theater had grabbed them and thrown them into a wall to get them to settle down. the thing was... he wasn't the one in trouble. these two kids were--with the police--for being rowdy in a bathroom. it seemed unnecessary to have two cops yelling at them to the point of tears when an adult had just abused them.

the other thing with that case is that there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything. if a cop violates the law to make a point, that's absolutely wrong. it happens all the time and just cos one instance of it might not be as extreme as another doesn't make either instance acceptable. many americans have this ridiculous ability to rationalize abused power as a necessity to keep order.

fuck that. it's wrong. it's particularly wrong when it results in harm to the public. people like you don't seem to care about that though. that's pathetic and weak. you don't just have liberty because someone tells you you do. you have liberty when you fight for it and question those who act to violate it. if yr the type of person who lives life by saying that things aren't as bad as X, Y or Z, you don't deserve freedom or liberty. yr not using them anyway. why not join the army? they'll happily absolve you of that pesky freedom and readily manipulate yr life for you.

as for art, i'm happy to make things that people hate. that's great. it's fun to exploit symbols to create dialogue. the thing is, no one has a right to request that i remove something that's not violating any laws and no one has a right to try to use law enforcement against me to remove something that violates no laws. you think that's ok?

do you engage in these dialogues purely in the interest of conversation, or do you really believe that opression, repression, abuse and the violation of civil liberties are ok?

Not all cops are good, not all cops are bad. Just try to understand. I don't find it necessary for cops to abuse kids in a bathroom just as I don't find it necessary for French cops to take a kid by her neck and slam her against the wall. There are bad cops everywhere in the world. Nothing new. For me, I have certain priorities and right now my life is pretty busy, much to busy complaining about "spilled milk". I'm not saying it's "right", but what I am saying is save your energy on causes that need more attention due to importance. To say "many americans have this ridiculous ability to rationalize abused power as a necessity to keep order" is pretty ridiculous considering cops in every country abuse power physically. Ever been to Europe? You should go sometime and take a look at how cops treat criminals or deliquents and I think you'll have a slight change of heart, atleast with singling out "America".

Who's to say what's right and what's wrong, CHABIB? Do we not break the speed limit when we are on the freeway? Do we not lie/fidge on our tax forms for more credit? Do we not spit on sidewalks, jaywalk, or litter? I guess it's ok for civilians to break the law, but god forbid a cop breaking the law, who has ever heard such a thing? Does it really "shock" you to find cops breaking the law? Law Enforcement breaking laws have been there since the beginning of governing society by law...nothing new. Living in Los Angeles and knowing how aggressive people are, when you have the Watts riots and the Rodney King Riots, it's very understandable why cops are very on-edge and may tend to break the laws a little when dealing with civilians. Do I think it's right? Absolutely not. Do I understand? Absolutely so. I guess you'd just have to be in their shoes. Remember Chabib, people(humans) are not perfect. I can name 20 gov'ts off my hand that have worse examples of government and law enforcement. I think if you were to compare it with the world, you will see that the US gov't & Law Enforcement isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

As far as the military, you don't know shit about the military chabib. And that's putting it bluntly. What you know about the military is what you are fed from the very media that you despise(ironically). Were you in the military? Was your father in the military? What do you really know about the military besides what you read off the internet, newspapers, tv, and magazines? Try joining the military. Try being a child of a father who's in the military and your view of the military changes dramatically because you experience it and you see what's on the media so you have a more accurate assessment of what the military really is. It's all to easy(dare I say "cliche"???) to say, "oh, Military = brainwashing".

But, what job really doesn't have a need of conformity(brainwashing)? Flight Attendants are all the same, they have to or else they will be fired. Sports, you have a philosophy you go by with the team or else you're traded/cut. Police, the same way. There are not alot of jobs where you aren't forced to be brainwashed, and those jobs that you aren't we should be lucky.

I am more of a realist and I guess I appreciate what I have a little more than those who are unappreciative. Just because "x" is making more money doesn't mean my life is shit. Just because "x" has connections and gets more freedoms in certain areas doesn't mean my life is shit. Sorry for being appreciative of what I have chabib, but I think if you can stop and look at the entire world and see what you have, your life isn't half bad, huh?

If anything, I deserve my freedom much more than you because of the simple fact that I appreciate what I have here. If you don't like the US & you hate the Gov't and law enforcement and you hate most americans, what makes you think that you deserve "freedom" more than the person who is more appreciative of what they have going???

As far as art, well like I said...you'll have to deal with people who like and dislike your art. Do I think that's right? Sure, why not? I don't expect everyone to like what I do. And if someone doesn't like it and they try to take it down, well they're only following their own convictions just as I am as an artist. I don't however think it's right trying to censor art. I just understand that's just part of the game, bro. If you do art, just expect people to like and dislike your art. Also expect that to be the case while dealing with law enforcement. No use in whining about something that every artist deals with. It's not like you're the first and only artist to ever be hassled by "the man". That just goes with the territory. So, why complain about it? Doesn't make much sense to if that's the game you're in.

Do I really believe that opression, repression, abuse and the violation of civil liberties are ok? Chabib, don't fall into the same pitfall that narrow-minded people fall into when they feel upset and hit a wall. Of course not. I've never said any of this is ok. Chabib, what you have to understand is that: condoning and understanding are 2 completely different things. I don't condone oppression, repression, abuse and violation of civil liberties, but I do understand why it happens.

Just try to open your mind a little chabib. It doesn't sound like you are a very fair person, which now doesn't surprise me considering you're ok with trolls that are only here to harass certain people(like myself).

Life in the US is pretty fucking good, and I'm appreciative of all of it. Sure, I may get a fucking ticket, I may get tailed & questioned by cops, but atleast I'm not shot on spot like they do in some countries. Atleast I'm not dragged and beaten to death by cops & gov't in some countries. The US is not perfect, and that's good & bad. It's good because it allows us to take advantage of an imperfect system, but just as we all take advantage of this imperfect system we also have to take the bad with it.

There is a reason why people come to this country. Our college education is quite remarkable, the ability break into the market as an entrepreneur is unlike any other country's, you have much more ways of using freedom of speech in this country than you do in most countries. Speaking of, I was talking to a friend who goes to an LA film school and how certain gov'ts in South America do not allow certain films to be release because the gov't does not approve of them. Not the case here...you may get a "rating" but you sure can put just about anything out as long as it's not "snuff" or something that could lead to being an "accessory of a crime".

I'm pretty fucking glad to have been able to get a job, get a degree at a pretty good school, do freelance and make my own money, go to shows, watch movies & tv, take vacations, spend money on clothes, listen & make music, art, design, swim, and do whatever I want in this country.

Life could be worse, like living in the Philipines, middle east, russia, china, north korea. Chabib, life for you could certainly be worse and there are millions of people around the world who would kill you to be in your shoes definitely. Definitely.

[noumenal]

Originally Posted by khchris(original)

It doesn't sound like you are a very fair person, which now doesn't surprise me considering you're ok with trolls that are only here to harass certain people(like myself).

Here we have the grain of sand that grew into the bullshit-pearl of the above post.

[khchris(original)]

Originally Posted by noumenal

Here we have the grain of sand that grew into the bullshit-pearl of the above post.

Is this really all you have to comment on the subject?
Sounds like you need a life.

[chabib]

khchris(OG)... you have people trolling you, because they do it in hopes of possibly assisting you in removing yr head from yr ass.

when thurston and i first launched protest-records, do you know how many amazing letters i received via the site from people in the military (with .mil addresses) telling me how bad things were and how grateful they were that we were encouraging dissent? i'm looking at them now. there are 83 that i saved and these are just on my laptop. there are more at my studio. that may not sound like a lot, but it meant a lot to me to get support and reassurance from soldiers actually fighting these ludicrous wars that i'm so heartily in disagreement with.

you also fail to see that if there's one group of people in society who should be absolutely held to the letter of the law, it's those whose job it is to enforce the law. when they break the very laws that it's their duty to enforce, they do a disservice to the concept of law. so don't make this about, "oh well we all speed or fudge our taxes." that's a bullshit penny-ante rationalization that has nothing to do with the point i was making. the law cannot break or selectively abide by the law--end of story.

i have a good life because i work my ass off. that has nothing to do with america. i'd work my ass off anywhere and make just as good a life for myself or i'd fucking move somewhere where i could work harder and give myself the life i envisioned myself having. if immigrants want to come here to work, they should. i support that 100%.

what i don't support is people in authority using their authority to frighten societies into submission. i'm still completely surprised that you seem to think that's ok.

on a smaller scale this is tantamount to me saying, "if you pipe up again in this thread, i'll disable yr account and ban yr IP address and email address. people the board over will rejoice in yr banishment."

you agree that i should be allowed to avail myself of such decisions because of a personal disagreement in ideology?

say yes and i'll happily conduct a little experiment with you.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by khchris(original)

Is this really all you have to comment on the subject?
Sounds like you need a life.

sounds like he HAS a life and no time for long rants. and sounds like he hit bull's eye with a single shot too

Originally Posted by chabib

on a smaller scale this is tantamount to me saying, "if you pipe up again in this thread, i'll disable yr account and ban yr IP address and email address. people the board over will rejoice in yr banishment."

you agree that i should be allowed to avail myself of such decisions because of a personal disagreement in ideology?

say yes and i'll happily conduct a little experiment with you.

well i'd say that counts as a veiled threat & the experiment already started. i'm watching for the outcome.

[chabib]

you know... i'm ready to expand my mind and play the oppressor. seems like good times to me.

i wasn't gonna touch the "need a life" thing. i think it's just an obvious example of kh's complete lack of a grasp on reality.

[jon boy]

the thing about khchris is that he is just trying to be argumentative because he thinks its funny to watch other people get angry. thing is no one is laughing exept him and its very boring. he does have another personality on the board i am sure.

as for the cop and the kids, this does happen in britain as well. probably not as much as it used to do but still it does and its just plain stupid. they used to talk about 'the short sharp shock' thing in the hopes that it would curb rowdy behaviour, which is maybe what these cops were doing. but they should know better than to pick on a couple of kids and let their frustration out on them.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by chabib

you know... i'm ready to expand my mind and play the oppressor. seems like good times to me.

oh brother! chabib is about to go dominant on khchris!

 

[atari 2600]

The mere fact that khchris takes such overwhelming offense to criticisms of the government is a huge red flag. I guess he forgets that America is great precisely because one has the freedom (& the inherent civic responsibility) to critique government policies here in America.

Our soldiers are noble & honorable people being forced to fight an ignoble & dishonorable war in Iraq. They are in the middle of a civil war. Kurd vs. Shia vs. Sunni vs. American. It's even more confusing than Vietanam was. They are subject to sniper attacks, suicide bombers & booby traps to a degree also surpassing what the Vietnam war veterans suffered through. True, the overall casualties are less, so far. From what I can tell with the building of military installations & pipelines to Europe, this war will actually continue longer than Vietnam did.
http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/07/06/vi...-a-comparison/
http://www.slate.com/id/2111432/
They are fighting in a country littered with depleted uranium from the first Persian Gulf War that is poisoning their bodies every day that they are there. True, War is Hell, but this one is preposterous. Despite what some may think I feel, I am no peacenik. I believe in our strong military. I do not think we as Americans get what we pay for though because most defense budgets are riddled with unconscionable pork-barrel spending. Despite my views though, I have never & will never cheat on my taxes. & I have much more accounting to do than most of you I would guess since I own a s-class (small business) corporation. I only speed if it's absolutely necessary because of the flow of traffic on say, an interstate as you get inside the city limits of a large city.

I know plenty about the military. I am a military brat. My stepfather was in the Korean War & Vietnam. He was a staff sergeant with the fighting US Navy Seabees & led a platoon of mostly Viet-Cong rebels & black soldiers that saw lots of fighting & heavy casualties. During his military career, he attained the rank of Master Chief in the Seabees which is as high as you can go & was enlisted for thirty-one years. I was appointed to the US Naval Academy, but did not attend. I wish I had, but partly the reason I did not is because I knew too much firsthand from him. So here I was also my high school valedictorian & I was completely disowned by him for not attending & for wanting to be an artist. Was he brainwashed? How much brainwashing is necessary in the military? I'll let the reader be the judge & form their own answers to these questions.

Any idiot would cease & desist at this point after chabib has explained that he got all those emails from dot mil addresses, but I'm sure khcchris will continue to maintain that chabib knows nothing about the military & continue his litany of denial. I think his impostor should be banned. As for the O.G., I'm thinking of jon boy's post & how similar khchris' writing is to a couple of other posters here that seemingly enjoy writing aggravating-for-the-sake-of-aggravation tripe. It might be interesting to see who else fell by the wayside if he was banned.

As for police brutality, it was only a few months ago that a friend of mine was assaulted by an off-duty police officer working security at a Univerisity of Virginia basketball game. He got his teeth knocked out. All of his front teeth. He had to have reconstructive surgery & his smile & countenance now is not the same. He & his family have a civil suit against the officer & hopefully will take everything the man & his family owns & everything he will ever earn in his lifetime away from him for his repugnantly unprofessional behavior.

[Rupert 'Stiles' Stilinski]

I do feel that it is important to consider things from the authority's point of view. I have always been very cynical of authority, and though I'm not always the person that speaks out, I have always done my part to "protest" in ways that I've felt comfortable.

My perceptions changed a little when I became an authority figure as a high school teacher. I immediately wanted to be the "anti-authority" figure which backfired directly to the benefit of no one. Since then, I've found what most would call a proper balance of respect given and respect received. I make a concerted effort to always think through things before acting. If for no other reason, I do it so I can sleep at night.

There are days that are so stressful that I feel like the leeway I give the kids is not reciprocated. It's very difficult to be a pleasant face and presence all the time; and it is even more difficult to see students oppressing other ones. I do lose my cool when I see some moronic idiot kick a mentally handicapped student in the balls. I probably react like a "bad cop" in that situation. Why don't I have the right to let basic human emotion enter into me? Should I quit my job knowing that I'll never be able to watch that without getting really pissed off?

All in all, I don't disagree that people need to speak up... I guess my anger is directed at CHABIB's signature. I don't feel like that a braindead Black Panther slogan promoting killing cops is an answer.

Who do you call when you're apartment gets ripped off or someone pistol whips your girlfriend? I've been in some shit, and though I don't always like the outcome, I'm glad the cops are there.

[whorefrost]

I was reading in the paper about a distinguished SAS soldier who resigned solely over the war in Iraq. Also there has been a lot of outcry from the families of British soldiers about what is largely considered an illegal war here.

[chabib]

truth be told, i've never called the cops for anything. the black panthers never killed any cops. that quote is a part of a chant that they'd sing at protests when they stood armed toe to toe with cops. they used the notion of command presence against the police and thereby didn't need to resort to violence. they were a pretty smart bunch of people who did a lot for their community to combat police abuse/terror. i'm glad they've started the party up again.

[Rupert 'Stiles' Stilinski]

That's cool that you never called the cops...

Would you ever be in a situation where you would call the cops or on any authority figure?

Thanks for the info about "command presence"... do you have a link for more info about that?

[chabib]

i can't really imagine a situation where i'd call the cops. when i've needed an ambulance, i've gotten an ambulance. when i've needed the fire dept, i've called the fire dept.

if i had some ridiculous amount of stuff stolen and needed to file a report with the cops for the insurance company, i guess i might do that, but i don't really have enough valuables to see myself not just replacing them on my own.

google command presence. there's plenty of information on control vs. command presence. you'd be surprised with what you can achieve in a tense situation if yr the one with the dominant confidence.

[Rupert 'Stiles' Stilinski]

So would you say the US would be better off without any sort of police presence?

So you don't call the cops in any of these situations?

1. A group of people are hanging around outside your apartment selling drugs making entering and exiting terrifying.
2. You or your girlfriend gets raped.
3. You witness a violent crime on an innocent civilian.
4. You find out your neighbor is molesting little kids.

Isn't there some need in making the situation in big cities better to include the police? I would have to think that you (an activist) would make leaps and bounds more progress if you could understand the psychology of authority rather than just bashing everyone in an authoritative position as a "pig".

[chabib]

cops get very little done and as an activist i know that. in case 1, i'd not call the cops. i'd contact one of my local representatives--who i contact quite often.

in cases 2-3, i wouldn't contact the cops. i'd attend to the victims and let them decide what to do.

as for case 4, my neighbor could well be child molestor. he has young male prostitutes over all the time.

cops are relatively useless to me. activism is about involvement in the political process. cops do nothing to facilitate that.

[!@#$%!]

hey, not just "big cities" need cops. i live in a shithole town & the drunk drivers are a fucking health hazard. i have NO PROBLEM ratting them out, because i'm not going to throw myself on the road to stop them.

fuck, once i saw this stupid woman driving a van with a baby on her lap, even though there were other passengers who could have possibly held it. she was driving like shit. WTF???? i'd personally flay her ass, but opted for calling the coppers. it's not that baby's fault his/her mother is a fucking shithead. get a fucking baby seat for fucks sakes! oh that shit just irks the fuck out of me... i have no problem w/ cops doing their job, if they only stick to that they are ok by me.

[chabib]

and on a related note. does anyone remember back to the usenet group? before there were any SY boards?
does anyone remember who first exposed the rapes that occurred at the 1990's woodstock?

me. then thurston took it to the media.

does anyone remember the media explosion that ensued and how a lot of girls received help as a result?
did i need the cops? did i do better without them?

man. this issue really gets my panties in a knot.

[truncated]

I swore I wouldn't partake in any thread khchris was a part of, but fuck it

Originally Posted by chabib

cops get very little done and as an activist i know that. in case 1, i'd not call the cops. i'd contact one of my local representatives--who i contact quite often.

chabib is absolutely right about this. For numerous reasons, which I will elaborate on later when I'm not so goddamn tired, cops either cannot (because of the limitations of existing laws) or will not (because of their mentality) effect any resolution or change when it comes to civil crime. I work in government and with law enforcement, and I get to observe this on a daily basis. You see many things of interest from an inside perspective.

[Rupert 'Stiles' Stilinski]

I respect you a lot CHABIB... I've spoken with you briefly at shows, though I'm sure you don't remember me.

I only question your generalizations. As I've gotten older and a little bit more practical (which isn't suicide), I've simply tried to avoid the generalizations that any type of people are wicked. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm in a "cop" like position at school and often have my attempts at helping turn into bitching by the students that don't take a second to see it from my perspective.

Wouldn't you be able to make more large scale progress by trying to understand the mentality of authority rather than writing it off completely as idiocy? And can't you at least acknowledge that not all cops are corrupt and or assholes?