[Bytor Peltor]

Detroit's downfall is due to Big Government.

The same Big Government which is the downfall of many smaller cities in California......and unless something drastically changes, my be the downfall of their lager cities as well.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Again, Bytor, that is a myth. Detroit does NOT have too big of a government, again, compare their numbers with comparable "Republican" cities and counties. The difference is that in Detroit, ONLY the public sector employees have remained because of layoffs and migration out of the city. Public workers don't have competitive resumes outside of public sector work, and the public sector is simply NOT hiring around the country, so where would these folks go? No where. So they are more or less stuck in Detroit. Further, many of these have invested their futures in Detroit, through their pension and retirement plans as well as the tenure they've worked towards within the system. So leaving wouldn't necessarily benefit them. Yet, neither does staying when bankruptcy means their pensions can get nullified or gutted through restructuring, and their very jobs are also on the line.

 

But hey, its not like we need teachers, police, fire-fighters, city maintenance workers, bureaucrats, or any other workers. Lets just have a free-for-all, a Rightists dream, NO government to speak of

[demonrail666]

I agree with Suchfriends. I'm actually amazed that people are trying to blame local government for Detroit's downfall. If anything, its local government is burdened with having to do too much with far too few resources. The city itself needs to downsize to ensure that its local services can focus on a more manageable metropolitan area, rather than having to deal with its sprawling suburbs, too. Detroit grew as its industrial strength grew but will now have to shrink in accordance with its new reality. That's not an issue of big government but a massively overstretched one.

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I agree with Suchfriends. I'm actually amazed that people are trying to blame local government for Detroit's downfall. If anything, its local government is burdened with having to do too much with far too few resources. The city itself needs to downsize to ensure that its local services can focus on a more manageable metropolitan area, rather than having to deal with its sprawling suburbs, too. Detroit grew as its industrial strength grew but will now have to shrink in accordance with its new reality. That's not an issue of big government but a massively overstretched one.

I guess it all depends on how you say it.

There is NO DOUBT Detroit did too much and spent more than their budget allowed. Detroit blew way past it's resources and now has nothing left to fall back on.

When you continue to borrow with no source of revenue to cover payments, bankruptcy is inevitable.

[dead_battery]

post industrialism yall!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

I guess it all depends on how you say it.

There is NO DOUBT Detroit did too much and spent more than their budget allowed. Detroit blew way past it's resources and now has nothing left to fall back on.

When you continue to borrow with no source of revenue to cover payments, bankruptcy is inevitable.

But that is the catch-22, it would be morally wrong not to honor existing contracts, bargains, and negotiations. If people who work for the government have paid into their pension plans and benefits packages under the contracted expectation that the government match them a certain figure, its point blank bad business practice for the government to then renege on the deal. If a corporation did that, people would sue that shit.

That being said, workers in Detroit have faithfully fulfilled their end of the deal, now there is a strong possibility that they will get nothing in return, perhaps even fired. Government needs to "cut down" people say, but that is bullshit. Proportionately in a lot of places, there aren't enough teachers, police, and maintenance workers. The government actually hasn't been growing FAST enough to catch up with population growth. Even in Detroit, while white-flight has reduced the size of the metropolitan population by 75%, the reality is the Conservative Michigan State legislature has further crippled the city by not infusing loans, investments, and other crucial funding which is a state-wide obligation. Detroit is part of the state of Michigan, if Detroit had fueled Michigan's growth for so many years, Michigan as a state should return the favor when Detroit is hard on its luck. Instead? Conservatives in the state legislature are going in for the kill.

It is a Neo-Con exaggeration to blame fiscal problems on government workers, the reality is that businesses and corporations don't pay their fair share through (a) unscrupulous accounting and tax write offs and (b) exploiting foreign labor for cheap wages to make increasing profits.

If the corporations and business were both paying their fair share in taxes, and hiring their fair share of American labor instead of outsourcing, so many cities and municipalities and even the Federal government might not find themselves so much in debt. This is not an ideological argument, this is an ontological economic reality, period. I am not a fan of the government, the government is evil, pure evil in fact. But where Conservatives want to cut funding is a worse evil, gutting public services including education and infrastructure, the few decent things we manage to coerce the government into supplying in the first place

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

But that is the catch-22, it would be morally wrong not to honor existing contracts, bargains, and negotiations. If people who work for the government have paid into their pension plans and benefits packages under the contracted expectation that the government match them a certain figure, its point blank bad business practice for the government to then renege on the deal.

YES - it's a good and moral practice to honor existing contracts. However, when the righting is on the wall and revenue steams aren't meeting basic needs, it's morally corrupt to keep spending / giving like everything is okay.

About a decade ago in the city which I reside, City Management was faced with the same situation. As a citizen, it pleased me the Mayor and elected officials responded accordingly.

All City workers received a 3% cut in pay (except for the fire department which has a contract that calls for mandatory raises / caused friction with the police department) .

When a tenured employee retired, the position wasn't filled......other department heads / employees had to pick up the slack.

Pensions and retirement programs were never touched.

Because of the wise decisions that were made and put into practice ten years ago, I'm happy to report our city now has a "rainy day fund" of over a few million dollars and each year the city adds more money to this fund. We are experiencing street and drainage improvements all over the city and most business are thriving in a tough economy.

I realize what happened here may not work in other states. I recently read that in the City of Detroit, over half of the street lights (about thirty-thousand) aren't operational and about half of the buildings downtown are empty.

However, since I've never been to Detroit, I understand things may not be as sad as I've read. Just last week Alan Sparhawk aka LOW tweeted the following:

‏@lowtheband 19 Jul - DETROIT, you don't look bankrupt to me! Friendly people everywhere, keeping cool...

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

I agree with you Bytor, restructuring existing benefits, salary, and hiring packages is quite necessary when pressed by fiscal crises as in Detroit HOWEVER, I must disagree with pushing workers to pick up extra workloads. Right now the average American worker is already stretched thinner than anywhere else in the developed world. American workers on average work more hours than other places, and the workloads they have tend to be heavier. Most people I know are already doing the job of two or three people, so you can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

I think its important for businesses and corporations to pay their share, which they don't. This is not some kind of Liberal talking point or media conspiracy, it is an ontological reality. American corporations do NOT pay enough taxes. Shit, the local refinery in the school district I work in didn't pay over $3,000,000 in local taxes through gimmicky accounting. Its the second largest refinery in California. Surely Chevron can afford to pay its bills, I pay my bills, you pay your bills, our neighbors and co-workers by and large pay theirs, why not companies, businesses, and corporations? That is the cost of doing business, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If business fills the coffers with the more appropriate tax revinues, and if they chose to invest rather than divest in the community (this means hiring, not outsourcing, this means building locally, not moving to the cheapest states and countries to build), then this can work in tandem with public sector workers renegotiating future salary and benefits packages. However, simply put, aside from very obvious instances of corruption, government contracts with its workers should be honored. Further, companies should be a bit more patriotic and be willing to contribute to the home front. Its fine to be profit oriented, but at what cost? This is the country where those business leaders live, why want to live richly in a country or municipality that is broke?

[!@#$%!]

if there's a time to buy a piece of land or move a business to detroit it's probably now-- actually businesses have been doing it already. as long as politicians don't keep peddling the same racial crap from the 70s (e.g. marion barry in DC) things should start looking up.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

What racial crap is that? Does cities such as Detroit or DC which are over 80% black should having racial consciousness threaten or intimidate you? If not, whats the beef?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

What racial crap is that? Does cities such as Detroit or DC which are over 80% black should having racial consciousness threaten or intimidate you? If not, whats the beef?

that's when incompetent politicians of a particular "race" capture the vote of citizens of the same "race" and get judged by their skin color rather by their competence/incompetence.

it happened to marion barry in d.c. he used to be a decent mayor in the 70s but by the 90 he was a corrupt motherfucker running a poliical machinery that kept him going like a zombie until congress tossed him out and set up a control board to set the city back on the right fiscal path.

shameful.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

That is fine, but the premise behind a lot of the racialized economic and local government schemes in DC was soundly based not on corruption, but demographics. How can cities with 80% black majorities NOT see similar proportions in city and local government, policies, and contracts? THAT is what Barry initiated in DC, and it was more-or-less a success for increasing black participation in civic matters as well as the local economy. In Detroit, if racialization is included in redevelopment or restructuring negotiations, I see no harm in that, after all, do you even KNOW people from Michigan? I do. Fuckers outside of Detroit are about as backwoods, redneck, and racist as anywhere in the country-fried South. The Michigan State Legislature has been trying to cripple Detroit for a decade now, and this might be a time they go in for the kill. Its import for the black majority of Detroit to be a part of the rebuilding, not the white folks from Michigan or nearyby Illinois or Wisconsin. That is what Barry was doing in DC redevelopment in the 70s and 80s. Was he a saint? God no! What politician ever is? Were a lot of his ideas good for the community in DC, a resounding yes, as attested to his 40 years in public service, corrupt or not. Go to Bell, California and find out what happens if corruptAND inept politicians go too far

[!@#$%!]

barry had so many people working for the dc government that the city no longer knew how many employees it had.

that's using taxpayer money for political patronage. and the city couldn't pay its bills.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

What has that go to do with the premise of racialized economic and civic redevelopment? We already agree that Barry has a laundry list of sins, but you're conflating two different issues. Racialized economic and civic redevelopment is NOT inherently corrupt, period.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Racialized economic and civic redevelopment is NOT inherently corrupt, period.

tell that to the millions of middle class taxpayers who fled (blacks in dc fled to pg county)

tha racial politics model is old and outdated and a proven failure.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

tha racial politics model is old and outdated and a proven failure.

You can argue its merits as an economic success or not, but since today both Detroit AND DC remain over 80% black its not quite accurate to say that its an "old and out-dated" model. If anything, that we still have such blatantly racially segregated cities and municipalities in the US points to the continual need for affirmative action in redevelopment schemes. I support the premise, though agree with you considerably about the need to curtail and remove instances of corruption which as you've so crudely insisted, are the fly in the ointment in the DC experiment.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

since today both Detroit AND DC remain over 80% black its not quite accurate to say that its an "old and out-dated" model.

not DC. dc today is now only 50% "black", and 8% gay, and 28% catholic-- there are a bunch of "hispanics" but that's not a "race" is it? (that's an american invention, the "hispanic race"). but how do you count your racist blood quantum? the prior mayor of DC (he sold me sneakersback in the day!) has a black father and a white mother. yes he has dark skin (white is recessive) but he was educated and professional and didn't pander to racist ideologies. so he wasn't reelected.

this is stupid shit. morons conflate race and class. the issue is class, because everyone interfucks and interbreeds and "races" are fictional. does your city allow for a prosperous middle class, with opportunities for the poor and enough of a surplus to find services and give people a leg up? nobody except the kkk and those who profit from "minority problems" should give a shit about much else when running a city. but instead we have primitivism and stupidity and XIX century blood quantum obsessions.

dead battery called it right.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

but he was educated and professional and didn't pander to racist ideologies. so he wasn't reelected.

What is your insinuation there exactly?

this is stupid shit. morons conflate race and class. the issue is class, because everyone interfucks and interbreeds and "races" are fictional.

That is your analysis, and you're free to it, but you'd be either naive, dense, or blatantly racist to pretend race does NOT play into it considering that in America we have an extensive history of a racist economic structure where black and brown are systematically disenfranchised.

does your city allow for a prosperous middle class, with opportunities for the poor and enough of a surplus to find services and give people a leg up? nobody except the kkk and those who profit from "minority problems" should give a shit about much else when running a city.

That is your opinion, but again, for example, here in LA we have a majority Latino population, and yet we do NOT see a latino majority in local government, in civic matters, in politics, and especially in the leaders of the "business community", in other words, there is problem. Our economic and political environment doesn't reflect our demographic reality. Doesn't pass the smell test if you ask me

but instead we have primitivism and stupidity and XIX century blood quantum obsessions.

dead battery called it right.

dead_batter has no experience to make the correct decision, he lives in a racially homogenous society. As you your claims of primitivism and stupidity, well, again, you are free to you analysis but wishful thinking does NOT negate the realities of our racist economic and political structures in the US. We can have all the fantasies and charade pat on the back moments, but this is most definitely NOT a post-racial society.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

What is your insinuation there exactly?

that the dc voter base was accustomed to pandering. btw, marion barry is now councilman for life representing ward 8.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

That is your analysis, and you're free to it, but you'd be either naive, dense, or blatantly racist to pretend race does NOT play into it considering that in America we have an extensive history of a racist economic structure where black and brown are systematically disenfranchised.

and the best thing for "black and brown" is continue to obsess with that history and blaming "the white man" for every problem instead of looking for a leg up, right?

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

That is your opinion, but again, for example, here in LA we have a majority Latino population, and yet we do NOT see a latino majority in local government, in civic matters, in politics, and especially in the leaders of the "business community", in other words, there is problem. Our economic and political environment doesn't reflect our demographic reality. Doesn't pass the smell test if you ask me

didn't hellay have a "latino" mayor until a few weeks ago?

in any case "latino" is not a "race", it's really more of a culture, and not a very homogeneous one at that.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

dead_batter has no experience to make the correct decision, he lives in a racially homogenous society. As you your claims of primitivism and stupidity, well, again, you are free to you analysis but wishful thinking does NOT negate the realities of our racist economic and political structures in the US. We can have all the fantasies and charade pat on the back moments, but this is most definitely NOT a post-racial society.

dead battery has direct experience of seeing the stupidity of centuries-old religious wars continuing to live in his day. because! there is a history! (and history must never change, right? grudges must be held for eternity.)

identity politics and primitivism never did anyone any good. funny thing, germany during the rise of hitler also was "oppressed" (by the versailles treaty and of course "those damn jews") and he fed it right into their stupid mouths. have you read "mein kampf"? it's all about race and playing the victim card.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

and the best thing for "black and brown" is continue to obsess with that history and blaming "the white man" for every problem instead of looking for a leg up, right?

You make the incorrect analysis so suggest that structuralized racism in the economy, political machinery ,and society as a whole is somehow history or the past. Its not. It remains a current, active, and important reality. We still have a significant income gap between whites and black and brown folks. We still have a significant education gap. We still have an even larger political gap. We do NOT live in a post-racial society, we're still working on this. Further, as "minority" folks become a demographic majority in the nearing future, this does not somehow automatically imply that racism is negated. Black folks were a long time majority in many of the Southern Jim Crow cities, and that didn't exactly do them any good.

Nice try !@#$%!, but we still got a lot of work to do, and affirmative action programs within government, education, and yes the economy are still a critical tool towards reconciling the sins of the past and those sins which continue today as its legacy. If you don't want to receive any kind of benefit from such programs, fine and dandy, carry on in your wishful thinking world, but let other folks reap the benefit, its been long time due. You're right, there is a class war in this society. However, the economy has been racially structured so that those in the bottom class overwhelmingly tend to be brown and black. Until THAT changes, race is still a critical factor.

didn't hellay have a "latino" mayor until a few weeks ago?

One mayor, and yet his cabinet, his staff, and the rest of the city government remains predominantly white. Having a single latino mayor is much like our having a single black president, it points out ALL THE MORE HOW SUCH IS AN EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE, and how we still have a problem.

in any case "latino" is not a "race", it's really more of a culture, and not a very homogeneous one at that.

neither are black folks, but America invented this peculiar concept of the One Drop rule, and the same concepts tend to be applied towards people with brown skin. To many white folks, Latinos remain the blanket "other" and usually are just confused as being just Mexican

dead battery has direct experience of seeing the stupidity of centuries-old religious wars continuing to live in his day. because! there is a history! (and history must never change, right? grudges must be held for eternity.)

Again, that is fine, but its an entirely separate situation. You're talking about a racially homogenous society, their beef remains almost entirely political and religious, and doesn't have the raciaized connotations that the American experience has, though in truth, the tapestry of post-colonial Europe is changing rapidly, and in the nearer future even Ireland may have to learn to navigate a racially diverse landscape much as the UK and France have had..

have you read "mein kampf"? it's all about race and playing the victim card.