[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by evollove

But I'm curious: does horror really scare? I mean, are there really stories/novels that actually freak you out as much as a movie can?

movies give you jump scares. cheap. easy. predictable.

scary books, the real scary ones, create a world that is so real in your head that you experience the terror as if it was happening to you. This happened to me with several Stephen King books in my teens. It also happened with clive barker's first books of blood short stories. when I got older I read HOUSE by Mark Danielewski and, while not horror per se, that book scared the shit out of my inner mind. books freak you out for far longer than a film can.

[Rob Instigator]

some writers are important because their use of the language is second to none. (Most of these writers I could give a fuck about. fuck your use of language. I hate florid shit. I want to read a story, not a fucking dipshit showing off how many gerunds he can disseminate)

some writers are important because the subjects and themes they write about had never been done that way before. (Lovecraft is this way. so is Twain, so is conan doyle. Lovecraft was not a good prose writer. no one claims that. his work is more like reading a news account of horrible shit happening. Conan Doyle had very utilitarian prose, but he created the form of the detective novel as we know it. Twain was the best writer of the lot I mention by FAR, but even he is not praised for his prose as much as he is for his ideas, humor, and observation of human nature)

Poe was both. he crafted precision in his stories, but he also created whole genres out of thin air.

[!@#$%!]

poe was the king of the cats

[ilduclo]

One of my all time favorite creepy books is Wild Palms by Wm Faulkner.

[evollove]

Oh! "That Evening Sun."

Black washerwoman Nancy Mannigoe fears that her common-law husband Jesus is seeking to murder her because she is pregnant with a white man's child. Her employers, The Compsons, are mostly indifferent. 75% scary, 25% really sad.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

devils dictionary used to sell as those $1 dover thrift editions and had a red cover and you could pick up anywhere. the internet i think killed that business model.

anyway i agree with you that horror is whatever scares you but i have a bone to pick with the notion that hatecraft is at the root of every horror story one has ever read. i mean this statement:



we’ve had stories and myths of ghosts and demons and monsters and evil gods and witches and fairytales and scary religions since the dawn of time.

hatecraft himself cites poe and some bulwer dude i had never heard of, then invokes polyphemus and used the world cyclopean because obvious cyclops. and that’s just on page one.

regarding modern fiction, books like frankenstein and dracula were way before and vampires are now everywhere.

i mean even wuthering heights is a fucking work of horror. come on.

but before?

the myth of orpheus is fucking horror.

the book of revelation is a work of horror.

the book of job, where satan and god make bets on the life of some dude. talk about out of control cosmic shit.

the twelve stations of the cross, horror

the snake in the garden of eden

little red riding hood

the divine comedy

the punishments of the titans defeated by the olympian gods

the myth of ragnarok

the popol vuh

etc etc etc

(existence itself is a work of horror, and we’ve been telling stories about that since forever)

however influential the guy might be today (e.g. he’s clearly a big influence on joss whedon) he didn’t come up with his shit from the vacuum. if anything it’s a pastiche of previous attractions. huge demons from under teh sea—hello, leviathan? the kraken? captain nemo fighting a giant plate of calamari? (ha ha). sailors since time immemorial have been terrified of giant underwater creatures which have accrued layers and layers of significance in their evolution. oh, the mesopotamian goddess tiamat is the oldest i know of.

the more i read about this the more i see demonyo’s point. looks like he was a kind of seed for a very large fictional universe like the one tolkien begat in the fantasy genre. (but tolkien also borrowed from earlier mythologies and sagas and a lot more). and it’s become large and coherent in a way he never intended. but to paraphrase obama, he didnt do that.

anyway seems like lovecraft has had a lot of homages and imitators in our day, but he himself was paying homage and imitating his predecessors. who are legion.

which, you know, is perfectly fine, because it’s what literature always does anyway.

i understand that he can be an important nexus in the genre, but that’s not the same as him having invented everything.

Ok ok, I was exaggerating for effect. What I really meant was modern horror owes a lot to Lovecraft. Stephen King, Clive Barker, who’s the other one? The other “big” one? Whatever... anyway, all of them just worship on the altar of Lovecraft. But of course not all horror is influenced by him, because he was not the first horror writer (or anywhere near the first).

If he actually *pioneered* anything it was the Weird genre, along with Mervyn Peake (in a much different way), and some others who have really excellent anthology SF/horror stories from the 20s-50s whose names escape me at the moment.

I exaggerated. Sorry. Blah.

[Severian]

One of the scariest stories I’ve ever read is “The Foghorn” by good old Ray Bradbury. There’s a definite element of Lovecraft in that ending (won’t ruin it for anyone who hasn’t read it). Not really *scary* in the way that makes you check your windows, but tense and thrilling and larger than life and kind of apocalypticly awesome.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

Ok ok, I was exaggerating for effect. What I really meant was modern horror owes a lot to Lovecraft. Stephen King, Clive Barker, who’s the other one? The other “big” one? Whatever... anyway, all of them just worship on the altar of Lovecraft. But of course not all horror is influenced by him, because he was not the first horror writer (or anywhere near the first).

If he actually *pioneered* anything it was the Weird genre, along with Mervyn Peake (in a much different way), and some others who have really excellent anthology SF/horror stories from the 20s-50s whose names escape me at the moment.

I exaggerated. Sorry. Blah.

oh ha ha ha ok i believe you now.

i got the ambrose bierce ebook off gutenberg the other day and gonna read those stories and see what’s up

had a superlong day on the road yesterday and i need a break. fiction for breakfast is a good thing.

[Rob Instigator]

ambrose's stories are not my fave, b ut his devil's dictionary is the epitome of SNARK!

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

ambrose's stories are not my fave, b ut his devil's dictionary is the epitome of SNARK!

I’m honestly not sure I’ve ever read anything else.

EDIT: OCCURRENCE AT OWL CREEK! Definitely read that one. Probably some others, but yeah. Good story.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

oh ha ha ha ok i believe you now.

i got the ambrose bierce ebook off gutenberg the other day and gonna read those stories and see what’s up

had a superlong day on the road yesterday and i need a break. fiction for breakfast is a good thing.

I’ve been reading Neil Gaiman’s “Sandman” comics, which are really almost more novel than comic. I never read the full series before, and still haven’t, because why would I read a *comic* by an author I love when I could read a *book?* (No, not even I am that nerdy, though I do love me some comics).

But I think it’s on par with some of his novels. Definitely top-notch for comics. I’d place it next to Watchmen or MAUS in the pantheon of comic books that deserve to be called “books.”

[Rob Instigator]

sandman rules.

[!@#$%!]

jeezus crackers sandman is the best fucking comic on the planet

if anything ever convinced me comics were worth a second look after childhood, it was that glorious masterpiece

just fucking brilliant

way better than maus. i mean, maus was a heavy subject but not a great plot. just very serious for a comic. i’d rather read viktor frankl or primo levi on the subject

i didn’t like watchmen because i had read borges first and that ruined the suprise of the literary devices they use in it. and i don’t know, i didn’t like the characters either or maybe the capes turned me off. dunno.

but sandman. holy shit. hoooo-leeeeee-shitttttttt. sandman!!!!

 

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

jeezus crackers sandman is the best fucking comic on the planet

if anything ever convinced me comics were worth a second look after childhood, it was that glorious masterpiece

just fucking brilliant

way better than maus. i mean, maus was a heavy subject but not a great plot. just very serious for a comic. i’d rather read viktor frankl or primo levi on the subject

i didn’t like watchmen because i had read borges first and that ruined the suprise of the literary devices they use in it. and i don’t know, i didn’t like the characters either or maybe the capes turned me off. dunno.

but sandman. holy shit. hoooo-leeeeee-shitttttttt. sandman!!!!

 

Sandman definitely > Watchmen, but Watchmen ain’t about capes. I think that book warrants at least two reads.

MAUS is more like Persepolis. Different kind of thing altogether, even from these comics, which are very different kinds of things altogether from regular comics.

Preacher is also some baller ass shit. Not sure if you’ve read that, but it’s worth it. Show’s obviously great, but the book is great in different ways.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

Sandman definitely > Watchmen, but Watchmen ain’t about capes. I think that book warrants at least two reads.

MAUS is more like Persepolis. Different kind of thing altogether, even from these comics, which are very different kinds of things altogether from regular comics.

Preacher is also some baller ass shit. Not sure if you’ve read that, but it’s worth it. Show’s obviously great, but the book is great in different ways.

i recommend fish. especially small fish at the bottom of the food chain. sardines, herring, anchovies. also apples. also walnuts. all good for memory! also relaxation exercises. reduce stress. clears the head = recollection.

don’t you remember you and i talked about a year ago (maybe less, maybe 6 months ago) about preacher the tv show and you liked tulip and all that? and i told you season 1 was a prequel to the actual comic? ok i won’t get sore. but we talked about it extensively! compared it to the comic! ok.

so, yes, i’ve read fucking preacher and it’s fucking awesome and you’re right it’s fucking great great great.

persepolis vol 1 for my taste beats vol 2 by a million miles. vol 1 is all about escaping and adventure. vol 2 is about, ugh, getting back to prison. a little too bitter for me and lacking structure. but 1 was magick.

the problem with maus for me is that it lacks a compelling plot. this happens, this happens, this happens— it’s a document. it’s an important document no doubt, but it’s a document.

persepolis documents history as well but i has an actual plot—there is tension in the narrative and it moves you forward. the thing that moves you forward in maus is spiegelman’s inherited neurosis. which, i don’t know, he doesn’t really delve into it. he’s a little cold about everything, a little distant. a little too detached, too american.i was disappointed when i read it.

you want to delve into jewish neurosis and historical trauma in the present, read jacobo timerman on the lebanon war. holy mother of fuck. it’s gut-wrenching. he’s argentinian so he doesn’t hold back— he spills his guts in front of you. a brilliant book. a meditation on the horrors of history and about going from victim to perpetrator. deeply, deeply felt.

anyway where was i going with this after 7 vodkas? hm... er... yes! plots. right ways of telling a story. a story says this happened first this happened secod this happened third. a plot tells you the story in a more interesting way.

and sandman— sandman is the mother of all plots. sandman is full of amazing surprises. sandman takes you one way then takes you another way then you arrive to a place and say huh? and wow. it’s just spectacularly well told. seriously. such a well-told story. masterful.

also i know that watchmen is not about capes, it’s about, uh, superheroes being flawed, and borgesian fake documents, and literary devices that were experimental 40 years before the comics. anyway i didn’t like it. i couldn’t like it. so i didn’t like it. and that’s how i didn’t like it. i got it. and still didn’t like it. couldn’t like it. won’t like it. can’t. not interested unfortunately. way the cookie crumbles.

a book that warrants at least 2 reads might be, hm, let’s see, borges’s ficciones. everyone should read that at least once. whatta book.

also, speaking of adult comics, the first several volumes of FABLES were fucking amazing. later it sort of spun off into a bland mess and i stopped buying/reading, kinda like they were milking their earlier success. but fables holy fuck so smart and so epic. the way the characters got reinterpreted into adulthood was a masterstroke. that alone, what it does for the mythical imagination, hasn’t been valued enough yet. sure it has been copied some in some tv shows, like, grimm or something? they attempt something like that? but no. fables. wow. it destroyed my childhood in all the right ways. it said: these characters grew up with you.

[evollove]

I'll have to re-read MAUS to make sure--it's been at least 15 years--but I'm pretty sure you're totally wrong. ;-)

But I've never heard of Jacobo Timerman and will explore, so thanks, and you may continue to live.

[!@#$%!]

i dont know what it was about maus. i thought it was very good, but somehow i had been expecting more. i think i have problems with the art character. basically i didn’t like him i suppose. he spoils it a bit for me. the dad’s story is amazing. but the son kinda ruins it for me, the fucking brat, ha ha ha ha. i don’t know. he gets in the way of the dad for me i suppose. i really just don’t know.

timerman’s family fled to argentina from russia pre-holocaust. he grew up nevertheless as a refugee and supported by jewish charities to an extent. throughout his life he dealt mostly with latin american politics and wrote about them as a journalist. in the late 70s he’s imprisoned and tortured by the argentinian junta that tortured murdered and “disappeared” some 30,000 people. israel intervenes, they save his hide, take him home (he had been a zionist all his life). he gets there and blam, the lebanon war happens.

he then proceeds to bite the hand that feeds him and writes THE LONGEST WAR, where he condems israel and its treatment of the palestinians, mixing recolletions of his refugee childhood with what he’s seeing happen in front of his eyes, and constrasts this mess with the zionist ideals he grew up with. he took a lot of shit for it but wow—it’s a potent read.

ETA: oh, the book was mostly ignored at the time of publication and israelis dimissed timerman as in ingrate who didn’t know what he was talking about, so it’s not a famous book by any means and i don’t think it won any awards. but read it and see.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i dont know what it was about maus. i thought it was very good, but somehow i had been expecting more. i think i have problems with the art character. basically i didn’t like him i suppose. he spoils it a bit for me. the dad’s story is amazing. but the son kinda ruins it for me, the fucking brat, ha ha ha ha. i don’t know. he gets in the way of the dad for me i suppose. i just don’t know.

timerman’s family fled to argentina from russia pre-holocaust. throughout his life he dealt mostly with latin american politics and wrote about them as a journalist. in the late 70s he’s imprisoned and tortured by the argentinian junta. israel intervenes, they save his hide, take him home (he had been a zionist all his life). he gets there and blam, the lebanon war happens.

he then proceeds to bite the hand that feeds him and writes THE LONGEST WAR, where he condems israel and its treatment of the palestinians, mixing recolletions of his refugee childhood with what he’s seeing happen in front of his eyes, and constrasts with the zionist ideals he grew up with. he took a lot of shit for it but wow—it’s a potent read.

Hmm. I’ve never read, but will consider it. Thanks for the history. That’s not great luck.

[Rob Instigator]

watchmen is about the myth of the do-gooder hero. it rules.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

watchmen is about the myth of the do-gooder hero. it rules.

We’ve had this conversation before, but it’s aboit a lot of things. Just not really about superheroes. Partly because there’s not a fucking single shred of heroism or altruism exhibited by any of the “masks,” and partly because, while the story may include at least one “super” person, it’s absolutely not a hero’s journey in the Campbellian sense.

But yeah, it’s more about the cold hard truths of the world. The “heroes” as depicted in normal comic books are fundamentally at odds with civilization and, y’know, its discontents. In reality, a hero is a human at a point in time before they have become corrupted, either by their own baser instincts or... well, basically fascism.

Aaanyway. I just wouldn’t call it a superhero story. At all. A story with so-called “super-heroes” in it? Sure. But all those “heroes” are either deviants, cowards, sociopaths or charlatans (eg deeply flawed, like people).

Also Cold War stuff.