[tesla69]

I used to think I was an atheist but I've come to believe its just as far fetched to say that the miracle of consciousness arose from random chance mixing of amino acids in pools of water over billions of years as from a deity. More and more I find myself thinking about the cloud of plasma and electrons that was spread across the universe for untold billions of years before congealing down into galaxies and stars...and how the electrical activity in that plasma cloud could have become a unified consciousness...

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

I'd like to seea world where people don't feel in the unknowns withthe unnecessary.

haaa haaaa haaaa haaa. YES.

i'd like to see you spell better so other people would take some of your statements more seriously, but this one above is brilliant (and funny) and i wanted to point that out.

Originally Posted by tesla69

I used to think I was an atheist but I've come to believe its just as far fetched to say that the miracle of consciousness arose from random chance mixing of amino acids in pools of water over billions of years as from a deity. More and more I find myself thinking about the cloud of plasma and electrons that was spread across the universe for untold billions of years before congealing down into galaxies and stars...and how the electrical activity in that plasma cloud could have become a unified consciousness...

consciousness is wonderful but not a "miracle", otherwise it would be rare. consciousness is a mirror of the world around it, which then takes on a few emergent properties, and voila, you have "consciousness", but things like photosensitivity start with unicellular organisms. is photosensitivity of an euglena a form of "consciousness"? well, yes it is. it's very primitive but there you have it. it's not supernatural or miraculous though.

don't think of information as something out of this world, but rather, as a 3rd type of matter (the 1st being "matter" proper, the 2nd being energy). structure and organization count for something, but they aren't "out of this world".

information is all over the universe. take a fossil, a print from ancient life forms. is a fossil cool? fuck yes. is it mind-fucking amazing? absolutely. but is it a supernatural "miracle"? not really.

miracles go against the laws of nature, but in nature information has a tendency to cluster and grow and can be transformed into energy (see "szilard's engine"). information ("consciousness") is part of nature just like energy and matter.

--

ps: see also: negentropy

[ann ashtray]

Yeah...obvious typos. Fixed and sorry.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by tesla69

I used to think I was an atheist but I've come to believe its just as far fetched to say that the miracle of consciousness arose from random chance mixing of amino acids in pools of water over billions of years as from a deity. More and more I find myself thinking about the cloud of plasma and electrons that was spread across the universe for untold billions of years before congealing down into galaxies and stars...and how the electrical activity in that plasma cloud could have become a unified consciousness...

The atheist doesn't know for a fact that there is not a god (damned sure not in the same sense that the believer claims to know for a fact that there is one). Again, we tend to believe there isn't one for the very simple fact that there is no evidence of god, therefor no reason to acknowledge the existence of one. That, and god in the way god is generally described is not very likely. I'd go as far as to say that I'm 99.9 percent sure no god that has ever been decribed to be exist

I know that dumb quote "you still have to have faith to not believe in god"....it doesn't work like that on any level though.

Much easier to embrace the fact that there are things we don't yet understand than to say "god did it".

[SONIC GAIL]

I still believe in god as most of you know. Yes there are A LOT of fucking idiots out there. God has proven his existence to me in what the results of my life are much more positive with my faith in him. Some may call it a crutch. Call it what you like.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Yeah...obvious typos. Fixed and sorry.

now it's a very fucking quotable post. really, it's fucking great. it's a perfect little verbal bullet.

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

The atheist doesn't know for a fact that there is not a god (damned sure not in the same sense that the believer claims to know for a fact that there is one). Again, we tend to believe there isn't one for the very simple fact that there is no evidence of god, there for no reason to acknowledge the existence of one. That, and god in the way god in generally described is not very likely.

what you're describing i think is agnosticism, not atheism. agnostics profess their ignorance, whereas atheists are more firmly in the "no god" camp; having said that, the denial of the existence of gods is not so much a faith as a reasonable inference from experience. still, those sorts of inferences are often challenged by shit of this type:

 

no! that can't exist!

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

I know that dumb quote "you still have to have faith to not believe in god"....it doesn't work like that on any level though.

it does require a conviction of sorts to say "that which i don't know, cannot exist", but i wouldn't call it "faith". refer to atheist vs. agnostic position.

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Much easier to embrace the fact that there are things we don't yet understand than to say "god did it".

it's actually not easier, but it's more honest-- big truths tend to make people develop headaches, mistrust of authority, and all sorts of socially inconvenient attitudes and behaviors, so it's easier to shove all the mysterious dirt under the god carpet.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

now it's a very fucking quotable post. really, it's fucking great. it's a perfect little verbal bullet.



what you're describing i think is agnosticism, not atheism. agnostics profess their ignorance, whereas atheists are more firmly in the "no god" camp; having said that, the denial of the existence of gods is not so much a faith as a reasonable inference from experience. still, those sorts of inferences are often challenged by shit of this type:

 

no! that can't exist!



it does require a conviction of sorts to say "that which i don't know, cannot exist", but i wouldn't call it "faith". refer to atheist vs. agnostic position.


it's actually not easier, but it's more honest-- big truths tend to make people develop headaches, mistrust of authority, and all sorts of socially inconvenient attitudes and behaviors, so it's easier to shove all the mysterious dirt under the god carpet.

Agnostics tend to be on the fence, not really sure either way. I'm damned near sure god doesn't exist, just not enough to say "I know for a fact...". I don't trust anyone that claims to know for a fact either way.

Yeah, the whole believing in god thing tends to be convenient for most. It also causes a lot of trouble.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Agnostics tend to be on the fence, not really sure either way. I'm damned near sure god doesn't exist, just not enough to say "I know for a fact...". I don't trust anyone that claims to know for a fact either way.

Yeah, the whole believing in god thing tends to be convenient for most. It also causes a lot of trouble.

agnosticism is not about being "neutral" in the dispute but rather declaring the dispute a futile one-- "i cannot know". which is what you're doing.

see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

read up the first couple of paragraphs and you'll see that you fall into the "agnostic atheist" category (so do i for that matter).

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

agnosticism is not about being "neutral" in the dispute but rather declaring the dispute a futile one-- "i cannot know". which is what you're doing.

see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

read up the first couple of paragraphs and you'll see that you fall into the "agnostic atheist" category (so do i for that matter).

For me there is a fence...the fence itself is agnostic (which I agree with that much, often times it is "I cannot know", other times it's "I don't care enough to know"). Above the fence is believing, below is non believing. Of course you're going to have varying degrees of the above/below sections (Some believe with some level of doubt, while others do not believe but still have doubts).

I don't believe, at all. Just being that I have no ammunition to disprove god, it's not fair for me to say "I know for a fact god doesn't exist". I don't get much into the subtitles/etc...the "agnostic atheist" (most atheists as far as I am concerned are this by default...I also feel most believers are really agnostic by default). No one "knows". This is why when it comes to debates, usually the one that "knows" loses. They can never prove their beliefs...never.

I've said it before, but the thing about being an atheist is that only the ignorant expect me to be able to offer answers. I don't have to prove a negative. It's those that have to prove a positive that run into problems. Problems usually meaning people like me that enjoy going out of my way to call them out on bullshit. Some say this is rude...I try, when possible, to be nice about it. I feel it's necessary.

A kid wants answers to some of life's more complex questions...I can honestly say "I don't know".

Taken the kid might be more inquisitive than the typical believer....the believer might run into problems explaining his beliefs.

I'll never have to answer some utter bullshit like "Is it possible for a man to live in the belly of a whale" or "can snakes really talk"? Of course, the answer to this is "no".

If I'm asked if I believe in god it's simply "no". When asked can I prove god doesn't exist it's also "no". I believe he doesn't, that's all I have to say.

Big difference between "knowing" and "believing"....for the faithful, however, these two words almost always mean the same exact thing. At least, that's the way they present their "beliefs".

[Murmer99]

Exactly. As far as I'm concerned... saying you're an "agnostic atheist" is just a more specific way of saying you're an atheist. They aren't mutually exclusive. Atheism is merely not believing that a god exists. Evidently... the concept isn't the same as believing that the existence of a god is impossible.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Agnostics tend to be on the fence, not really sure either way. I'm damned near sure god doesn't exist, just not enough to say "I know for a fact...". I don't trust anyone that claims to know for a fact either way.

Yeah, the whole believing in god thing tends to be convenient for most. It also causes a lot of trouble.

So what are you waiting for, a personal experience one way or the other? I am quite curious what would be the defining factors for the definitive answer in the atheistic direction. I agree with of all y'all that God can not be proven, but I'm a psychedelic, existentially we realistically can never prove ANYTHING actually exists in any kind of way in 100% absolutes, perception makes reality entirely subjective. That being said, I am well versed in the kinds of affirmative religious experiences, but I've never really thought about it philosophically as to what is the convincing 100% argument against any kind of deities or spiritual entities beyond physical perception.

[the ikara cult]

The thing is, even if we produced watertight scientific evidence for how the universe was begun that had nothing to do with any of the gods that have ever been believed in, the religious would still claim that their God was behind that as well.

I know exactly what is needed to disprove my position - independent verifiable scientific evidence that your God exists - but the Godly will never be satisfied with any explaination that doenst confirm what they already believe. That makes their position weaker.

[EVOLghost]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

but the Godly will never be satisfied with any explaination that doenst confirm what they already believe. That makes their position weaker.

QFT

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

So what are you waiting for, a personal experience one way or the other? I am quite curious what would be the defining factors for the definitive answer in the atheistic direction. I agree with of all y'all that God can not be proven, but I'm a psychedelic, existentially we realistically can never prove ANYTHING actually exists in any kind of way in 100% absolutes, perception makes reality entirely subjective. That being said, I am well versed in the kinds of affirmative religious experiences, but I've never really thought about it philosophically as to what is the convincing 100% argument against any kind of deities or spiritual entities beyond physical perception.

Honestly, I'm not really waiting on anything. I don't feel as if I need answers to these sort of questions to have a better/more meaningful life. Not knowing what happens after I die (as an atheist I don't think anything happens) isn't something that usually bothers me all that much, nor does it have any effect on the way I think I should live my life. Not knowing every detail as to why or how I am here doesn't bother me, either.

And you are right. Nothing can ever truly be "proven". This is why science tends to stay away from the word "fact". We can be pretty certain, but never truly know anything for a fact. Evolution is still only a theory (one I hope most accept)...but at least it's a theory that can be tested. There is evidence in which can be examined. Why are we encouraged to get a new flu shot each year? The virus evolves. Why do our skeletons look different than that of our ancestors? God hasn't really left us anything to examine. Of course we can say "god is everywhere", but there is nothing as obvious as his signature in the clouds.

Now...what would it take for me to believe in god without any doubt? Hard to say. An actual conversation with him (the sort in which I can hear him talking back and don't have to rely on faith that he'll respond in some small/abstract/highly questionable way). I really can't answer this question, honestly.

But in attempt of answering your question (at least, what I think you are trying to ask)...I can't really answer this, either. At least, not far beyond saying most of the things in which I've been taught about god often seem completely bogus to me. I can't see god being the sort of being that decisively interacts with us on any level. I can't see a self aware/single entity god. I could possibly buy into the "we and everything around us is part of god", and that "when we die we all go on to some sort of collective conciousness ie nature" <( unaware of ourselves after death as individual entities)...but even this I don't belive. Just, there is no reason for me to believe in god. I know I keep saying that, but that's the best response I can come up with. There is not a shred of evidence that tells me some sort of god "obviously exists". There is very, very little that tells me a god might even exist.

[RanaldoNecro]

One of many reasons religion is an awful thing.

I am going to take the believers standpoint on this one know matter what horrid incarnations of religion you have all encountered on this board. I do take the viewpoint that I have to surrender some of my personal liberty for the benefit of someone else is an essential tenant of Religion. So yeah, of course it sucks. That is a big throwdown.

[floatingslowly]

Know matter what. Eye be leave.

[EVOLghost]

Honestly, from what I've experienced, people use it as a means to have a meaning in life. Some people are lost, and I think they're just creating a safe haven in their minds with an idea of God, and what his "will" is. For example my mother, she is the most religous person I know. Attends church, goes to a church group, prays teh rosary almost daily, she's HxC catholic. I once tried to explain my views as an agnostic and she was offended....terribly. I mean I guess you would call her a slave to the church. She follows virtually everything...but the happiness that I've seen flow out of her because of religion is beautiful. To have such devotion to her life and the church is something to be somewhat jealous of, because she has found her meaning in life. She has hope in her life because of Religion. So..now my question is not if you want to rob another human being of his/her right to believe in a higher power, but instead if you want to rob a human from his/her right to a meaning in life.


Does it really matter if God exists?

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by EVOLghost

Honestly, from what I've experienced, people use it as a means to have a meaning in life. Some people are lost, and I think they're just creating a safe haven in their minds with an idea of God, and what his "will" is. For example my mother, she is the most religous person I know. Attends church, goes to a church group, prays teh rosary almost daily, she's HxC catholic. I once tried to explain my views as an agnostic and she was offended....terribly. I mean I guess you would call her a slave to the church. She follows virtually everything...but the happiness that I've seen flow out of her because of religion is beautiful. To have such devotion to her life and the church is something to be somewhat jealous of, because she has found her meaning in life. She has hope in her life because of Religion. So..now my question is not if you want to rob another human being of his/her right to believe in a higher power, but instead if you want to rob a human from his/her right to a meaning in life.


Does it really matter if God exists?

This.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Honestly, I'm not really waiting on anything. I don't feel as if I need answers to these sort of questions to have a better/more meaningful life. Not knowing what happens after I die (as an atheist I don't think anything happens) isn't something that usually bothers me all that much, nor does it have any effect on the way I think I should live my life. Not knowing every detail as to why or how I am here doesn't bother me, either.

And you are right. Nothing can ever truly be "proven". This is why science tends to stay away from the word "fact". We can be pretty certain, but never truly know anything for a fact. Evolution is still only a theory (one I hope most accept)...but at least it's a theory that can be tested. There is evidence in which can be examined. Why are we encouraged to get a new flu shot each year? The virus evolves. Why do our skeletons look different than that of our ancestors? God hasn't really left us anything to examine. Of course we can say "god is everywhere", but there is nothing as obvious as his signature in the clouds.

Now...what would it take for me to believe in god without any doubt? Hard to say. An actual conversation with him (the sort in which I can hear him talking back and don't have to rely on faith that he'll respond in some small/abstract/highly questionable way). I really can't answer this question, honestly.

But in attempt of answering your question (at least, what I think you are trying to ask)...I can't really answer this, either. At least, not far beyond saying most of the things in which I've been taught about god often seem completely bogus to me. I can't see god being the sort of being that decisively interacts with us on any level. I can't see a self aware/single entity god. I could possibly buy into the "we and everything around us is part of god", and that "when we die we all go on to some sort of collective conciousness ie nature" <( unaware of ourselves after death as individual entities)...but even this I don't belive. Just, there is no reason for me to believe in god. I know I keep saying that, but that's the best response I can come up with. There is not a shred of evidence that tells me some sort of god "obviously exists". There is very, very little that tells me a god might even exist.

 

j/k
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ann ashtray again.

[the ikara cult]

Never has the clash between my independent mind and my desire for social harmony been crystallized like in The Breakfast Club. I dont really mean that sentence of course, im being completely disingenuous, but if any of you question my disingenuousness I will launch a global war against you in the name of my own sense of irony.