[FruitLoop]

Originally Posted by SynthethicalY

ThePits I have heard it is due to the hormones added to milk that girls are getting their menstruation cycle much faster now.

I'm not quite sure about this hormone thing, as I'm sure the story isn't much different in Canada where the use of growth hormones in dairy production is illegal. Rather it might be related to the increase in dietary fat, as sex hormones (such as estrogen and progesterone) are derivatives of cholesterol. Anorexia can mess up the mentrual cycle for this reason, as the body's fat reserves dry up. Also, the prevalence of childhood obesity can perhaps be linked to earlier fertility (higher fat proportion, etc). Then again, what I'm saying here comes from a couple of classes and some logical thinking, and my memory needs some refreshing (helloooo Pubmed!).

By the way pregnancy intervals were much longer before agriculture for this reason too, as the nomadic lifestyle of hunters-gatherers had a large impact on the body's fat reserves.

Edit: two abstracts from PubMed

From J Obstet Gynecol Neonatal Nurs. 2007 May-Jun;36(3):263-74
Cesario and Hughes: Precocious puberty: a comprehensive review of literature

Eighty-two studies or case reports met the criteria for inclusion in this literature review that captured six attributable causes of early sexual maturation in female children. These included genetic, ethnic, and pediatric obesity, as well as environmental toxins that disrupt endocrine function (chemicals, toxins, plasticizers, infant feeding methods, skin and hair products, assisted reproductive technologies), psychosocial stress, and early exposure to a sexualized society. The robustness of the reports varied and few of the studies were widely generalizable but did offer suggestions for assessment and nursing care. CONCLUSIONS: Precocious puberty has health and social implications that are complex and influenced by multiple factors. Further research is needed to expand and elucidate theoretical relationships between the early development of secondary sex characteristics in young girls and the proposed causative factors.


From Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2006 Jul 25;254-255:8-12. Epub 2006 Jun 6
Ong et al - Lessons from large population studies on timing and tempo of puberty (secular trends and relation to body size): the European trend.

Ever since the publication of the first textbook on human growth by Johann Augustin Stoeller in 1729, temporal changes (or secular trends) in growth and pubertal maturation have been observed throughout the world. Data covering the longest time span are often reported from European populations. For example, in Norway and Denmark the age at menarche has fallen rapidly since the 19th century, by up to 12 months per decade. These changes have broadly paralleled increases in adult height in most European countries over the last century, with rates of around 10-30mm per decade. These secular trends are influenced by background ethnic, geographical and socio-economic factors, and clearly nutritional changes have an important role as reflected by positive correlations between age at puberty onset or age at menarche and childhood body size. Changes in height, pubertal maturation, and childhood body size have all also been related to rate of weight gain in infancy, and there is growing evidence to suggest that this early postnatal period may represent an early window of susceptibility to long-term 'programming' of various outcomes in humans. There is debate as to whether the secular trends in pubertal maturation are continuing or have reached their limit. Even where temporal changes are overall clearly significant, they are most marked in the more nutritionally deprived sub-groups. Whether over-nutrition and increasing childhood obesity will continue to lead earlier puberty is uncertain. The confirmation of an estimated advance in the age at menarche of 6-12 months per 100 years will require a long-term perspective on behalf of current investigators, and new consideration of methodological approaches in an age of increasing recognition of children's rights for privacy.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by FruitLoop

I'm not quite sure about this hormone thing, as I'm sure the story isn't much different in Canada where the use of growth hormones in dairy production is illegal. Rather it might be related to the increase in dietary fat, as sex hormones (such as estrogen and progesterone) are derivatives of cholesterol. Anorexia can mess up the mentrual cycle for this reason, as the body's fat reserves dry up. Also, the prevalence of childhood obesity can perhaps be linked to earlier fertility (higher fat proportion, etc). Then again, what I'm saying here comes from a couple of classes and some logical thinking, and my memory needs some refreshing (helloooo Pubmed!).

By the way pregnancy intervals were much longer before agriculture for this reason too, as the nomadic lifestyle of hunters-gatherers had a large impact on the body's fat reserves.

those are theoritcal dangers, the above fact sheets speak of the presently accepted side effects which should be well considered before taking any sort of medication.

[luxinterior]

If a girl wants an abortion she should be able to get one. By making it a requirement that parents give their consent will only fuck up the situation even more, because many parents will end up forcing their daughter to carry the baby to term, and that is wrong. Yes, it's a surgical procedure, but you can't tell me that getting an abortion is anything like having your appendix taken out. There is an obvious stigma surrounding abortion. The subject itself makes people act irrationally. Sure, it would be great if parents could be understanding and sign the consent form and then after that make sure that their daughters have access to contraception and even just information in general, but that's not the way things actually work in real life. And because of that, parental consent should not be required.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by luxinterior

If a girl wants an abortion she should be able to get one. By making it a requirement that parents give their consent will only fuck up the situation even more, because many parents will end up forcing their daughter to carry the baby to term, and that is wrong. Yes, it's a surgical procedure, but you can't tell me that getting an abortion is anything like having your appendix taken out. There is an obvious stigma surrounding abortion. The subject itself makes people act irrationally. And because of that, parental consent should not be required.

Risks Return to top
Risks of surgical abortion include:

• Excessive bleeding
• Infection of the uterus or fallopian tubes
• Damage to the uterus or cervix
• Emotional or psychological distress

The risks of surgical abortion increase as a woman gets further along in her pregnancy. That's why it's important to make a decision about abortion as early as possible, when the procedure is safest.
Risks of medical (non-surgical) abortion include:

• Prolonged bleeding
• Fetus not passing completely from body, making surgery necessary
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Diarrhea
• Pain

The risks for any anesthesia are:

• Reactions to medications
• Problems breathing

The risks for any surgery are:

• Bleeding
• Infection

these are the kinds of things parents should know about. if the parents are to ignorant to make a proper decision, you honestly believe that the teenage child they are raising is some how more educated and can make a more mature decision taking into consideration properly the above risks? or does a scared child who is 15 not know about risks, which explains the situation she is in to begin with, and could she be exposing herself to dangers without proper advice. it is a parent's right and responsibility to take care, medically, of the health of their children.

since when is the hospital, or even worse, the free clinic such a safe place, where minors can go in unattended to have surgical procedures which can risk their health and safety? they can't get tattoos, they can't get piercings, they can't smoke, but they can have potentially dangerous surgical procedures or get access to potentially dangerous drugs and medication?

its like steel pulse sang, "they've all gone crazy..."

[luxinterior]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Risks Return to top
Risks of surgical abortion include:

• Excessive bleeding
• Infection of the uterus or fallopian tubes
• Damage to the uterus or cervix
• Emotional or psychological distress

The risks of surgical abortion increase as a woman gets further along in her pregnancy. That's why it's important to make a decision about abortion as early as possible, when the procedure is safest.
Risks of medical (non-surgical) abortion include:

• Prolonged bleeding
• Fetus not passing completely from body, making surgery necessary
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Diarrhea
• Pain

The risks for any anesthesia are:

• Reactions to medications
• Problems breathing

The risks for any surgery are:

• Bleeding
• Infection

these are the kinds of things parents should know about. if the parents are to ignorant to make a proper decision, you honestly believe that the teenage child they are raising is some how more educated and can make a more mature decision taking into consideration properly the above risks? or does a scared child who is 15 not know about risks, which explains the situation she is in to begin with, and could she be exposing herself to dangers without proper advice. it is a parent's right and responsibility to take care, medically, of the health of their children.

since when is the hospital, or even worse, the free clinic such a safe place, where minors can go in unattended to have surgical procedures which can risk their health and safety? they can't get tattoos, they can't get piercings, they can't smoke, but they can have potentially dangerous surgical procedures or get access to potentially dangerous drugs and medication?

its like steel pulse sang, "they've all gone crazy..."

I simply think that it is wrong for anyone to force another person, even a minor, to go through with a pregnancy. That's it. And that's what these parents end up doing. There are also parents who force their daughters to get abortions, which is also wrong. Or is that okay now, because the parents are involved? So please, feel free to solve all of these problems. Requiring parental consent is not a step in the right direction when it ends up taking away another person's right to choose--and these girls should have that right, even if they are minors. I'm not saying that these girls are so mature and are always going to be making the "right decision" when getting an abortion, or that they are more knowledgeable than their parents. Obviously, that is not my point. My point is that individuals should have certain rights that bypass parental approval. A tattoo is not a baby, so don't compare this issue to things like piercings and tattoos and other bodily modifications that you make a choice to get, pay for once, and then from that point on only have to worry about it looking shitty when you get old. There's a tad more involved with a baby, I would believe.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by luxinterior

I simply think that it is wrong for anyone to force another person, even a minor, to go through with a pregnancy. That's it. And that's what these parents end up doing.

I'm not saying that these girls are so mature and are always going to be making the "right decision" when getting an abortion, or that they are more knowledgeable than their parents. Obviously, that is not my point.

My point is that individuals should have certain rights that bypass parental approval.

It is a parent's responsibility in all other regards legally, so why in this one should the parents not be involved, particularly when there are risks to the health of their children? as I said, they could NOT get their appendix removed, they could not get a prescription for an opiate pain killer or an antidepressant, and yet they can get a surgical abortion or access to prescription birth control medication readily?

what happened to the days when feminists argued that birthcontrol and abortion were tools of the oppressive, male-dominated capitalist state to control the sexuality and reproduction of women, particularly minorities? somehow it has been reversed, and yet who performs the majority of these procedures and manufactures, prescribes and distributes the majority of these medications (men)? something shaddy is going on if you ask me..

[Anngella]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

I wonder if I'd grow more facial hair if I stopped taking birth control.

I think that happened to my mom, but I could be wrong since she takes other pills.


I also agree that abortion should be allowed for anyone. It's better for both the female and the potential baby.

[alyasa]

Pro-responsibility.

[luxinterior]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

It is a parent's responsibility in all other regards legally, so why in this one should the parents not be involved, particularly when there are risks to the health of their children? as I said, they could NOT get their appendix removed, they could not get a prescription for an opiate pain killer or an antidepressant, and yet they can get a surgical abortion or access to prescription birth control medication readily?

what happened to the days when feminists argued that birthcontrol and abortion were tools of the oppressive, male-dominated capitalist state to control the sexuality and reproduction of women, particularly minorities? somehow it has been reversed, and yet who performs the majority of these procedures and manufactures, prescribes and distributes the majority of these medications (men)? something shaddy is going on if you ask me..

I still disagree with you (for all of my reasons mentioned previously), but you make a good point in the second paragraph. More about that here:
http://radicaldoula.com/2007/07/30/s...use-vs-access/
So I am aware of both sides of the issue, definitely.

With that said, I don't subscribe to the idea that just because women are capable of giving birth it is therefore doing them a disservice by allowing them the option of not reproducing. Take note that I am not talking about forced sterilization or anything of the sort. Some women just do not want kids, period. And I don't just mean "at this moment in their lives." Shocking, I know. I've already realized that most girls my age have plans to get married, pop out a few kids, and do the whole family thing, and are genuinely looking forward to it happening in the near future (I guess). Personally, that's not me. I'm not completely against marriage, but the thought of it does not fill me with the same kind of joy it does others. As for kids, even when I was younger and more impressionable, I was put off by the idea of someday having my own children. I can remember a specific instance when I was maybe six or seven years old, playing house with my best friend. I'm guessing that I had just discovered the concept of adoption (one girl I went to school with early on had a brother who was adopted, and it was no secret either) and I made a remark about how I wanted to adopt a kid when I grew up. And I can remember my friend asking me why I wouldn't want my own kid. I don't remember what I said in reply, but my point is that for the most part my feelings haven't changed. Of course now I think about it in terms of finding a partner who has similar feelings (those being, if I absolutely must have--God forbid--children someday, please let them be adopted), because most people want their own kids and that could be a problem. But really if I am honest with myself I know that I'm not even sure I would want to raise children at all, even if they are adopted. Maybe that "instinct" is just not in me, but I've never really felt it. I always just considered adoption because it seemed like a practical compromise or something, or I felt weird because I've never liked kids much. It's a horrible way to look at something like this, but it's my honest opinion.

I don't see much wrong with wanting kids (though I personally can't relate and would encourage the general population not to have SO MANY kids--I will add that I am glad I have three brothers, so I may be a hypocrite), and there's nothing wrong with not wanting kids. Actually it's absolutely fucking fantastic not to want kids. And I don't think women are taken nearly as seriously as they should be when they claim not to want kids, which is a shame. People seem to think that all of these women will come to their senses someday and give in to their motherly instincts or some shit. Like, when they see all of their friends having babies or whatever. Or, babies are so cute, what woman wouldn't want one? It justifies our existence, blah blah blah, you aren't a "real woman" until you've given birth, blah blah blah, heard it all before.

I don't appreciate you using the feminist movement to back up your opinion that abortions and birth control are just "The Man's" way of controlling women's bodies. This is not so popular of a viewpoint among feminists (unless, yes, we are talking about minorities like in the link above), and considering the sheer amount of effort it takes on their part just to keep abortion legal and birth control accessible and Planned Parenthood centers up and running, you are really insulting their understanding they have of their own bodies. Basically, we are intelligent enough to realize when something is our own choice and when something is being forced upon us, as is evident in that link.

[Anngella]

I agree with everything you said, lux. And I can relate to not being taken seriously. Though I'm only 16, I know I never want to bear a child (although I do find babies cute, until they cry or whine or poop. It doesn't stop me from finding dead baby jokes abosolutely hilarious, though). However, my mom thinks that I'll change my mind some day because she "didn't want kids at my age either." But most people I know have a general knowing of whether or not they want kids.

[alyasa]

The thing is, in this case birth control is a godsend. Prevention is always better than cure, no? Being responsible means not getting into a situation where you have to make a choice to abort... Because, useful as it may be, abortion is no walk in the park. Neither is pregnancy, but that's not my point. What's best is a combination of sex education and dialogue and sessions with the parents and birth control and planned parenthood. Abortions and putting children up for abortion is dealing with the symptom, not the disease. Preteen sex and pregnancy is definitely a no-no, I think we all can agree. But, like I said, in this case, birth control is a godsend of sorts. It's definitely better to prevent these children from having sex in the first place, but if that's unavoidable, society must take care of them somehow, and if that means giving them pills to prevent pregnancies, then I am all for it. I know girls who have been in these situations and the trauma of going through pregnancies and abortions at age 14 or 13 is enough to kill any man...

[Anngella]

Oh yeah, I definitely agree that a very comprehensive sex education is the best way to go, and birth control should be available to anyone. I think it was sort of getting off topic with the talk of abortion and such. Education first, abortion as a last resort.

[alyasa]

What Angella said. She summarised my post, basically. Thanks!

[luxinterior]

I try not to make broad statements about what I will or won't do in the future. All I can say is that I've never had that "I hope I have kids someday" feeling. I'm not opposed to having a family, but I'm not sure I would want to take on the role of a mother. I love my own family (when I say that I usually mean for it to include my mom and my brothers), and I honestly cannot imagine life without all three of my brothers. They really are my best friends. So every now and then I get to wondering how I can reconcile this love of a big family with my own preferences of not having children in the future. And then I realize that it's not the amount of kids in my family that makes me love my family, or the fact that there are kids at all, it's each brother as an individual that makes me love my family. And that cannot be duplicated, so there is no point in thinking that by having children I could somehow recreate that. Basically, if I love my brothers so much, I should just try to keep in contact with them as much as I can once we are living apart, and always try to involve them in my life. All of this makes me wonder if other people get confused and think that they want to have big families because they liked their own big family so much, and when their new big family turns out to be quite unlike the family they belonged to as a child, the situation becomes more stressful than enjoyable.

Today at school all the art students went on a field trip, and I got to talking to a friend of mine on the bus ride back about all this sort of stuff. She was talking about how she could see herself marrying her current boyfriend, and how she wanted to have a career and later on have a kid or two. And I told her about how I didn't think I wanted kids, and how the thought of being a mom has always left me feeling odd in the bad sense, but that at some point I might consider adoption. Then she asked me if it was because I was afraid of getting fat, and I said no, based upon a few different things, one being that about a year ago I was nearly 20 lbs lighter than I am now (putting my weight at that time at a whopping 108 lbs). My normal weight fluctuates between 115 and 125 lbs, usually, depending on what foods I'm into at any given time. Sometimes it's pasta, sometimes it's bananas, and I become obsessed with that particular food for a while until I move on to something different. But obviously pasta is going to make me gain weight and bananas are bananas. We don't have a scale at my house, but I can tell by the way my pants fit. Anyway, I was going to school in Chicago when my weight dropped to 108, probably because I was actually eating balanced meals from the dining hall and not snacking at all in between them because I just couldn't afford it. I felt like I was wasting away and my clothes started to look baggy and terrible on me, and I had to invest in a belt because I couldn't afford new pants. My figure (or lack thereof) looked boyish to say the least. When I eventually moved back home and went back to eating terrible shit, I put on weight, and my clothes started to fit me again. I thought I was looking better even though my diet wasn't (and still isn't) all that healthy. But when I was telling my friend about all of this, it suddenly hit me that I do feel really uncomfortable when I experience changes in my body. Right now I feel like myself. If I were 20 lbs lighter I would not feel like myself. If I were 20 lbs heavier I would not feel like myself. If I got pregnant I think it would make me crazy. I don't think I could handle it. If I ended up as a mom, with my own biological child, I don't think I would feel at all like myself, because no part of me wants that. That's much worse to me than any bodily change. That's a lifestyle change, and it's a lifestyle that wouldn't be able to withstand my narcissism.

[alyasa]

Being pregnant is an experience I greatly adore in other people...

[SynthethicalY]

Lux I can't rep you, but I totally agree with you. Someday I want to adopt kids instead of having them by some weird process of looking for someone to carry them. I just think now that is very selfish of me, and really there are kids out there that need love too. I come from a big family I am the youngest one of 8 and I know I want two the most. And my mother has insisted to all of us that we should have no more than two kids because of what kind of life she gave us. She wants us to give our families a better life than what she gave us. I think women should have every right to choose I always held that believe since I first heard about abortion and contraceptives. I think people should be taught about all of these things, but sadly there are people who oppose it for religious views. I always felt minors should not need a parents notifications for several reasons:

1) I come froma shitty neighborhoods, and most girls I knew their parents kick them out.
2) Some of these girls where actually are very intelligent and this just ruined their life for a better future.
3) They got their ass kicked by their father.
4) They get married to the guy, and three five years max they are seperated, and they are single parents in their late teens supporting three kids.
5) They are not in the mental and emotional state to care for a child.

There are more but these are the ones that pop out the most.

[EMMAh]

They should give any little girl who wants to have or is having sex birth control pills and encourage them to use condoms as well.
I think it's fucked that kids have sex so damn early, but making the sex as safe as possible is the best idea really.

[k-krack]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

it is also way too early to be taking COCK

But the fucking fact is that KIDS ARE HAVING DEX AT A YOUNGER AGE.
The only fucking tactics that people use nowadays is fear "AH! YOU FUCK SOMEONE, YR GOING TO GET FUCKING AIDS! DO YOU WANT AIDS?! DO YOU WANT TO DIE?!" Or simply avoiding it, and acting like it doesn't happen.
Just because you don't think something SHOULD happen does not at all mean it DOESN'T and it should most DEFINITELY NOT BE COVERED UP! FUCK!.
Sorry for exploding on you, Rob. But it just really annoys me...

[Anngella]

Originally Posted by k-krack

KIDS ARE HAVING DEX AT A YOUNGER AGE.

Want to go have some hot dex in the back of my car? Maybe some butt-dex?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by luxinterior

I don't appreciate you using the feminist movement to back up your opinion that abortions and birth control are just "The Man's" way of controlling women's bodies. .... you are really insulting their understanding they have of their own bodies. Basically, we are intelligent enough to realize when something is our own choice and when something is being forced upon us...

I see you are not familiar with what has been called "my" simplistic view of the world; that everything can be in some way if not entirely reduced to "the man" hence me asking who promotes, funds, and performs the majority of abortion procedures in the United States? Who produces, manufactures and distributes the majority of birth control medication in the United States?