[RanaldoNecro]

Maybe the catholic church should sell some of its assets

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

Are these guys exempt from the legal system? Do they go to real people jail too?

nonsense, the vast majority go to jail because most victims the make complaints take it to the law and call the cops..

its like !@#$% and others mentioned, there are pedophiles hiding in all ranks and walks, it is just a bit more horrific when they are priests, especially manipulating sacred office like confession and the communion

Originally Posted by pbradley

Wait, I also said that celibacy is pedophilia? Goddamn.

I never said you said such a thing. I was pointing out that ANY PRIEST WHO IS HAVING SEX WITH CHILDREN IS BY DEFINITION NO LONGER CELIBATE. Celibates DO NOT HAVE SEX, which children or adults or otherwise. So it is wrong and slanderous to other celibate priests who are normal folks to even remotely associate celibacy with the sexual conduct by these pedophiles, because that is fallacious, they are no celibates in the first place. They are child molesters and there is clearly a world of difference..

This is all old news for LA, former Cardinal Roger Mahony settled over $600 million for accusations back in 2005. Frankly I am surprised that folks are getting this so late in the game, I thought we already had this lampooning years ago?

[Pookie]

My wife and I were both raised as Catholics.

Talking to a friend (who obviously doesn't know us very well) recently, she asked if our children are catholics. In unison and with more than a hint of panic and disgust we both shouted: NO!

Pushing religion on children is a form of child abuse anyway but catholicism takes it to another level.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Pookie

My wife and I were both raised as Catholics.

Talking to a friend (who obviously doesn't know us very well) recently, she asked if our children are catholics. In unison and with more than a hint of panic and disgust we both shouted: NO!

Pushing religion on children is a form of child abuse anyway but catholicism takes it to another level.

perhaps some catholic curricula are a bit over zealous, but as a Youth Minister I must admit to taking a bit of offense at that. Kids are more inherently religious than ANY adults I have ever met, and many THRIVE with independent thought and personal growth in a religious education. Kids BEG me to teach them religion, and we have a blast.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Kids are more inherently religious than ANY adults I have ever met,

Not sure what you mean by this. Susceptible? I know my daughter loves religious stories: from Adam and Eve to Zeus. But she also loves stories about unicorns and talking bees.

[knox]

i remember a thought after being dragged to mess as a child

is god watching me poo? does he get off from that?

and then i played god with my dolls.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Pookie

Not sure what you mean by this. Susceptible? I know my daughter loves religious stories: from Adam and Eve to Zeus. But she also loves stories about unicorns and talking bees.

not susceptible, more like authentic, sincere, genuine, insightful, self-actualized and self-aware. It is all the adults who are full of bitter guile and boredom. Kids are NATURALLY religious (ie, seeking religion/spirituality) it is all the adults who are blinded by the drama and cultural baggage..

[knox]

true, I thought unicorns could be real. I wanted them to be real.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

not susceptible, more like authentic, sincere, genuine, insightful, self-actualized and self-aware. It is all the adults who are full of bitter guile and boredom. Kids are NATURALLY religious (ie, seeking religion/spirituality) it is all the adults who are blinded by the drama and cultural baggage..

I think you're mistaking self awareness with innocence and also over simplifying.

Children's minds are not "authentic, sincere, genuine, insightful etc", they are under developed. Perfect time to instil ancient myths which have NO basis in fact in their susceptible minds.

That's why children believe in unicorns and fairytales. The only difference between religious stories and other fairy tales is that at some point a child will realise the non religious fairy tales are just that.

My children are lucky that they are growing up in a place where religion is not totally pervasive. And my daughter is already working out the bullshit.

And for that I am grateful. I don't want her fantastic, bright, joyful mind cluttered up with bullshit. Child abuse.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by knox

true, I thought unicorns could be real. I wanted them to be real.

Nobody can prove they don't exist.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by Pookie

Nobody can prove they don't exist.

bet someone on here will give it a good try though.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Pookie

I think you're mistaking self awareness with innocence and also over simplifying.

Children's minds are not "authentic, sincere, genuine, insightful etc", they are under developed. Perfect time to instil ancient myths which have NO basis in fact in their susceptible minds.

That's why children believe in unicorns and fairytales. The only difference between religious stories and other fairy tales is that at some point a child will realise the non religious fairy tales are just that.

My children are lucky that they are growing up in a place where religion is not totally pervasive. And my daughter is already working out the bullshit.

And for that I am grateful. I don't want her fantastic, bright, joyful mind cluttered up with bullshit. Child abuse.

you need to catch up on some Joseph Campbell to get a better understanding of the true purpose of myth/religion in culture, you have quite a misunderstanding. The historicity of myth is irrelevant in fact, to the overall purpose of transmitting culture through the active experience of myth. For children and adults alike mythology and religion are not events in the history book, they are active in the third-eye imagination of the present, helping to guide, explain and give purpose and meaning to present and future. Myth provides identity, significance, and meaning to many things, and by the way, in very positive psychological and sociological ways. Myth is not merely a control mechanism of various authorities, myth dwells in the believer not the deceiver, and in the life and mind of the believer it is not the historicity, but the substance. Catch up back on your Campbell, you will get blown away and never look at religion the same. It is not about dogmatism, it is about awareness.

 

By the way the age group I am referring to is around 8-13, who are most definitily children (just talk to them and see) and yet by no means believe in fairies and magic...

but this is for another thread entirely.

by the way, do you also let your kids be cluttered up with a bunch of corporate brain washing commercialism/materialistic bullshit as well? Or do you just throw out the only pedagogy with some cultural substance and leave the superficial bullshit to clutter away

[knox]

all you have to do is lock them up with no tv and no access to other children
except their cousins and half-brothers/sisters
also locked in the basement

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

you need to catch up on some Joseph Campbell to get a better understanding of the true purpose of myth/religion in culture, you have quite a misunderstanding. The historicity of myth is irrelevant in fact, to the overall purpose of transmitting culture through the active experience of myth. For children and adults alike mythology and religion are not events in the history book, they are active in the third-eye imagination of the present, helping to guide, explain and give purpose and meaning to present and future. Myth provides identity, significance, and meaning to many things, and by the way, in very positive psychological and sociological ways. Myth is not merely a control mechanism of various authorities, myth dwells in the believer not the deceiver, and in the life and mind of the believer it is not the historicity, but the substance. Catch up back on your Campbell, you will get blown away and never look at religion the same. It is not about dogmatism, it is about awareness.

By the way the age group I am referring to is around 8-13, who are most definitily children (just talk to them and see) and yet by no means believe in fairies and magic...

I've studied the area in depth. At college as well as studying Psychology I took a separate course in Child Psychology, as well as Sociology, Philosophy, History and Religious Studies (there, you made me look like a twat). I've also had an interest in religion and mythology (as well as American history and politics - my degree is in American History) and in particular evolutionary biology and most recently the connection between human evolution and religion.

I'm not trying to sound like a twat. I just thought I'd get the "you don't know what you're talking about" childishness out of the way. I may not agree with you but it's a subject I probably know enough about to have a valid opinion about.

I'll be getting some Joseph Campbell books from the library. Thanks for the recs.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Pookie

I think you're mistaking self awareness with innocence and also over simplifying.

Children's minds are not "authentic, sincere, genuine, insightful etc", they are under developed. Perfect time to instil ancient myths which have NO basis in fact in their susceptible minds.

That's why children believe in unicorns and fairytales. The only difference between religious stories and other fairy tales is that at some point a child will realise the non religious fairy tales are just that.

My children are lucky that they are growing up in a place where religion is not totally pervasive. And my daughter is already working out the bullshit.

And for that I am grateful. I don't want her fantastic, bright, joyful mind cluttered up with bullshit. Child abuse.

I have to say, as someone who's sympathetic to religion, that I entirely agree that it's more often massively dangerous to orient children, pre-rational reflection (I think that starts developing around 8-10, which I'm sure you'll correct me on) towards religion, especially religions whose little-d dogma (culturo-religious edicts, perhaps) is sprawling and ill-defined.

The only point I'd make is that I do see a difference to the religious 'myth', in its broadest sense, and fairy tales, ghost stories and so on. The equivocation is a fair one, but in terms of the status of religion, it purports to be a myth within society, rather than without - religious myth is transcendent and tied in with the social, while fairy tales are allegorical, fantastical narratives. Obviously, the equivocation on your part is fair, given I'd assume you'd still equivocate them at the point of the 'fantastical'. The problem is that the equivocation on the basis of the lack of historical 'fact' to any myth-system threatens to undermine the meaningful (and largely allegorical) function of fairy tales and religion in favour of a dry rationality that doesn't really square with the absence of an immanent rationality accessible to each person in a given society.

[Pookie]

Darn you. I was going to edit my post for reasons stated in my pm.

I agree with you and it is unfair to compare mythology with fairy tales. Or rather it isn't so much unfair than in need of a more (a lot more) fuller explanation.

In a similar way during a discussion with phoenix I compared the superstition of tarot with other superstitions (eg having to turn around and touch your toes before leaving the house). Sounds like a ridiculous comparison but less so than you would think.

Yadda yadda.

[Glice]

Have you ever read Feyerabend's 'Farewell to Reason'? I think you'd like it. He comes from the philosophy of science angle and ends up defending (exalting, even) Voodoo. He was mis-used by Cardinal Ratzinger as a defender of the Church's involvement in 'the Copernican revolution', comically.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by Glice

Have you ever read Feyerabend's 'Farewell to Reason'? I think you'd like it. He comes from the philosophy of science angle and ends up defending (exalting, even) Voodoo. He was mis-used by Cardinal Ratzinger as a defender of the Church's involvement in 'the Copernican revolution', comically.

I just wrote a shed load of insightful and at times hilarious remarks in response to this but pressed a button and lost the lot.

I'll be fucked if I'm going to write it again.

I haven't read it but if I can find time in between the four volumes of that Campbell bloke's stuff I'll give it a squizz.

[knox]

Pookie, I like your studies.

[Rob Instigator]

actually, most Priests that are accussed of sexual abuse of whoever do NOT even go to trial. they are kept safe by the church who then "rehabs" them by making them pray for a while, and then they send them off to another parish, ussually some small town, where no one has heard of his crimes.

they do NOT go to jail.