[atsonicpark]

I don't think Albini's sound works for every band. A band like McLusky? He works (on the slower songs especially). A band like Space Streakings or Melt Banana? Not so much. Listen to The Ghost, the album with Albini and the album without him... the album without him sounds so much better. He has a very very particular sound that works well on albums with lots of space in the mix (Pod, Tweez -- I think he would have done excellent work on Spiderland, but yeah.. Rid of Me). On faster, more dynamic albums, his sound doesn't really work (I don't think Surfer Rosa sounds very good, to be honest, the songs always feel a bit lagging because the drums are so loud and the other instruments can't seem to keep up; I think COME ON PILGRIM was a perfect production for that type of sound, whoever produced that). I wouldn't get him to producer an SS record. Maybe a robe. record.

That being said, he's not a bad producer at all; I LOVE his drum sounds. And he has produced, flat-out, more classic albums than any other producer, ever. Just having "engineered by Steve Albini" on the back of your record will get people to check it out. Did he ever produce any Low albums, btw? I can't remember, but that seems like a band that would be perfect for his type of sound. OH -- case in point -- SHELLAC albums are some of the best sounding I've ever heard. Listen to a song like "crow". But again, that's 3 instruments, usually not played blindingly fast, not complex as hell either (despite them being termed as "math rock"). Anyway, enough examples...

Albini really doesn't seem to work in the way a lot of producers do because of his aesthetic; a lot of producers do overdo it (see Butch Vig). But you know, someone like Ian MacKaye, I think, has the perfect mix of sounds on his record -- with some bands, you really do need to have walls of guitar, you need to have overdubs. Look at Ross Robinson; yeah, his vocals are always too loud, and he worked with a few shitty bands, but listen to the GlassJAw or Amen or At the Drive-In stuff he did. Recorded live, without a click track, to capture the whole band -- you can hear every instrument clearly, and it sounds fucking FIERCE -- but then there's clearly a shitload of guitar overdubs to give it a meaner, more interesting and complex sound. It really really works. And that's just something you'd NEVER see on an Albini record, for better or worse. He's too interested in, y'know, "keeping it real". (wanna give another shout-out to Ross Robinson's production on SlipKnot's self-titled album; can you even comprehend recording 9 guys, playing blindingly fast almost all the time -- and then still having a shit ton of guitar overdubs and other weird sounds ON TOP? How are those songs not a complete mess? They streamlined their sound almost immediately afterwards, making it slower but a bit noisier, and then a bit more "metal". But that self-titled album.. damn.. must have been a nightmare. 3 fucking drummers for fuck's sakes. And you can hear every instrument in the mix perfectly. Vocals being too loud aside, I think if you want to hear a masterpiece of production, listen to a SlipKnot song like Prosthetics or Scissors or Eyeless or whatever).

...Anyway, I won't blame Albini for having a certain sound. But every record he produced sounds exactly the same. And I agree with Glice.. he has produced some stuff that sounds awful, but I mainly blame the band in that case. Seriously, check out those Melt Banana records he produced. They sound AWFUL!

Anyway, Dave Friddman is a great producer, Terry Date is great... you know who I think is one of the worst producers ever? RICK RUBIN. God his stuff sounds so fucking FLAT.

Anyway, I've never liked In Utero. It has some great songs on it, some of their best even, but also their worst ever. Heart-Shaped Box goes nowhere, Tourettes is boring despite being a minute long, All Apologies is their most boring song ever, Rape Me is awful. Would've made a good EP. It seems like Kurt was wanting to go in a softer direction, but he was also probably burned by the people calling them sellouts and all that. The album is very uncomfortable and hard to sit through, which I guess may be some of the appeal. Live shows around that time fucking killed though, adding Pat Smear was a genius movie.
What kills me about Nirvana is that their best songs -- Blandest, Marigold, Sappy, SPANK THRU!, and so on -- are kinda buried and obscure, in a sense (nothing is really "obscure" because of the internet, but you know; they aren't household name songs). I watched LIVE AT READING dvd, and they really had a good sound live, but they played so many songs in a row that kinda just sounded exactly the same, very formulaic and boring. Only on BLEACH stuff did they really sound amazing, Negative Creep and even the simplicity of School really really worked, because they were creative and interesting. But all those Nevermind songs in a row really really dragged. For their encore, they played Spank THru (god that song rules), D7, Money Will Roll Right In, etc... which sounded AMAZING!

Also, I think "Polly" is just flat-out just a bad song. What's the appeal of that one, again?

...Anyway, I think Kurt/Nirvana definitely had some amazing stuff, but I think the reason I was so down on them for so long was because the stuff that is overplayed didn't do anything for me. Kurt was actually a talented and creative guitar player. BLEACH, INSESTICIDE, part of IN UTERO are amazing. All their b-sides and covers rock. But like I said, listening to MUDDY BANKS is really really does it for me. That's the record. They just sounded so good live, especialyl the tracks with Pat Smear. Also, the "Aneurysm" on that one is probably their best moment, ever.

[atsonicpark]

Originally Posted by keep poppin pimples

tthe bass sounds awful and it was always one of the best parts of nirvana

Definitely want to reiterate this point, too, the bass -- what bass?! -- sounds like complete garbage on just about everything Albini produces. Unless it's distorted bass or something.

What I don't get is JESUS LIZARD's "Liar" album. That doesn't sound like Albini recorded it -- it sounds GREAT! Loud bass, great overdubbing guitar lines, etc. It really makes me think Albini loved that band so much that he probably spent a little more effort. Listen to the album that immediately followed "Liar" and it sounds like SHIT, though... supposedly this is when Jesus Lizard and Albini were having a falling out. Yow said he "sabotaged" the record; I think he just made it sound like all the other stuff he produces, which doesn't work for Jesus Lizard.

I think Albini would've done a great job on early Sonic Youth, something like "Confusion is Sex" (or even something later like "NYC Ghosts and Flowers"). But can you imagine him producing, oh... a song like "Cross the Breeze"? That would've been a mess.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

Steve Albini has produced some of the worst albums I have ever heard. I just wanted to say that.

please name some (I am not suggesting everything he shits out is perfect like Zappa, but I'm just curious what ones in particular)

The thing with Steve Albini is this, he is a talented recordist, and has worked on quite a few albums with quite a few bands for decades. We all know that not every single album or project he has worked on has been perfect, but what makes him and his particular talent at capturing "live sound" of raw, fierce, feedback/dynamics/soundscape oriented guitar work and music on some quite honestly legendary albums with stand out artists. From my own experience, one of the hardest things to capture onto tape is the sound of feedback and harmonics that come from speakers. Not every mic set up and recording mix-down can get what the ear hears live in the studio or from the stage, and steve captures that pureness better than anyone hands down. Point out a better recording engineer/producer who does this?


My highlight, Shannon Wright Over the Sun

[atsonicpark]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

please name some

Like I said, and I'm sure Glice will agree, anything that is really fast, technical, or has a lot of instruments (aside from the GODSPEED album he did). Steve has ONE sound. It doesn't work for every band. That album he did for Shakuhachi Surprise and the one he did for Space Streakings would absolutely be considered essential classics but he fucked up the production, since all the songs are like 300bpm and have layers and layers of keys and weird ass electronic noises (not to mention jet-fueled guitars!). Also, again, those Melt Banana records sound awful.

one of the hardest things to capture onto tape is the sound of feedback and harmonics that come from speakers

Eh? I'm not sure about this one. I've been recording kinda-shitty sounding albums with a computer mic for 13 years but I've never had a problem getting harmonics or feedback sounds. That really has more to do with the band setup. If you want to talk about difficult, let's talk about recording multiple instrumentalists playing technical and fast. Which is something albini can't record properly.

No one is disputing that Albini has worked with some talented bands, and he knows how to set up mics to pick up certain sounds well. But his sound flat-out doesn't work on most bands. Really, now that you mention "Guitar oriented music", I really think he would have done a terrible job on something like Daydream Nation. Here's a good one: Imagine him producing Dillinger Escape Plan's "calculating Infinity". That would just sound AWFUL. And that's a band with the "harmonics" and "feedback" (calculated, fast as hell blasts of them), but the loud drums would be so damn lumbering that it wouldn't work. Like I said in my post, he seems to not allow guitar overdubs, always recording bands live, etc. That certainly works for a lot of bands -- especially bands people on here are fans of -- but once outside of his comfort range, it just does not work.

So, he's not a very diverse producer. That's probably his worst flaw.

Also, the absolute best way to get a great feedback or harmonic sound is hooking your amp into the mixing board directly. Mess with some equalization, or the compression, should sound great. I think you're just saying you dig his very very dry sound. But so many bands don't work with that sound.

[quote]steve captures that pureness better than anyone hands down. Point out a better recording engineer/producer who does this?

Dave Friddman, Mukai Shitoku -- honestly, just about every Japanese producer I've heard; they production is always topnotch -- Brian Paulson, Chris Hufford, Ross Robinson (when he wants to), etc. Hell, Zappa! Listen to "trout mask replica" production -- the purity of the sound on that is mindboggling. Every producer Beefheart worked with, actually, aside from whoever did Strictly Personal, was fucking amazing. Whoever produced the first 10 Fall albums. Etc etc. Didn't John Frusciante self-record his first few albums? Those sound amazing!

The best producers are the ones who produce for the band, not putting their own personal stamp on every recording they produce. That's why Albini doesn't even consider himself a producer! I have heard plenty of home recordings that are better than anything Albini has recorded. It's really not that difficult to achieve an Albini type sound. Mic up the drums, make them loud to hide any deficiencies in the mix, record live (seemingly with lots of gritty treble).

Albini certainly has a cool sound but he can't be arsed to take himself out of his sound. Know what I mean? I mean, I'm a huge fan of his, his music, and he was a supernice dude when I met him. I used to actively seek out every album he had anything to do with at all, and have heard some absolute gems (Auteurs "After Murder Park" and that Fred from B-52's solo album! Incredible albums). But I can't really defend his approach to everything he's touched.

[atsonicpark]

here's my favorite Nirvana song, BLANDEST: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFEF-bR1R_8

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

Like I said, and I'm sure Glice will agree, anything that is really fast, technical, or has a lot of instruments (aside from the GODSPEED album he did). Steve has ONE sound. It doesn't work for every band.

agreed, I was not suggesting all were good, I was just wondering what of the bad albums glice was mentioning, don't be so defensive

That really has more to do with the band setup. No one is disputing that Albini has worked with some talented bands, and he knows how to set up mics to pick up certain sounds well. But his sound flat-out doesn't work on most bands. Really, now that you mention "Guitar oriented music", I really think he would have done a terrible job on something like Daydream Nation.

I disagree, I think Steve could have done a fine job with an album like Daydream Nation, a lot of the better albums he has recorded are similar sound.

Also, the absolute best way to get a great feedback or harmonic sound is hooking your amp into the mixing board directly. Mess with some equalization, or the compression, should sound great. I think you're just saying you dig his very very dry sound. But so many bands don't work with that sound.

you are kidding me right? Preamps do not even create natural harmonics, that comes from actually resonating and vibrating air in the the real world. Going straight to the board gives that harsh, plastic, clipping sound or articificiality akin to one Bob Digi.. If you want to get the real sound of real feedback and the natural harmonic dynamics of the distored guitar, it has to be running through a good amp, a good speaker system, remarkably good microphones well-postitioned, a damn good engineer manning the knobs like they are an instrument themselves, and of course quality wide reel-to-reel. If you are suggesting anything else, I can hardly take you seriously, and this particular recording style is Steve Albini's forte, and even if it is his one good thing, what is wrong with that? We don't need him to be a more diverse engineer, there are plenty of bands who need his particular recording skills to get their own live sound on tape.

[atsonicpark]

I guess I didn't really understand what you meant when you said "Capturing feedback and harmonics". That just seemed like a somewhat bizarre thing to bring up at all.. "man, he gets great FEEDBACK SOUNDS." I mean, obviously yeah, recording live is going to sound good, but if you want the CLEAREST sound -- period -- you gotta run through the board. Obviously, we're talking about different things, because I guess you're saying he creates a dry sound you're into. Which, yeah, is his forte. And the only sound he knows how to produce. Which isn't a problem in my opinion, but I can see how someone would grow a distaste for that. I mean, if you buy some 250bpm punk album or something and then turn it over and see "engineered by Albini", you're probably going to scratch your head. I'm going to go back to my McLusky example. Most of their songs were midtempo and sounded great. But please listen to "DeThink to Survive" sometime, or the last song on Do Dallas.. "whatyouknow". These songs are punk speed and sound like lumbering giants. And also really really could've benefitted from some more guitar overdubs. Albini keeps it real, maybe too real, and it has a strangely artifical sound to everything he touches, despite it sounding kinda live too. It's a sound I dig, but I can definitely see someone thinking it was shit.

Also, I'm not defensive at all, I've just listened to so much of this guy's albums and really think he's one of the most important producers ever, for a certain type of sound.

And I think In Utero sounds great, aside from the non-existent bass. But I don't think it's a very good record. I think if Kurt had done that "mostly acoustic" album or something he was talking about, with Albini, it would've been awesome. And certainly songs like "dumb" sound amazing -- I think "Something in the Way" could have also benefitted from Albini's touch.

[Genteel Death]

Does anyone know if Merbow produced other people's albums?

[hipster_bebop_junkie]

"In Utero" is my favourite Nirvana album, and the first record i ever bought. Played the tape until it worn off. Love the others as well. I think there's great stuff to be found in every Nirvana record, even though all of them are flawed, in a sense.

Having said that, i don't listen to the official stuff too often anymore. As atsonicpark has mentioned, some of the lesser know material is very interesting as well. I think there's still some potentially good stuff that remains unreleased... I'd love to hear the raw recording of that "Nevermind" session that spawned "Endless, Nameless", for example. I think pretty much the same about "Blandest", "Spank Thru", "Sappy"... and then there's "Montage Of Heck", "Here She Comes Now", "Oh The Guilt", etcetera.

Good call on the "From The Muddy Banks Of The Wishkah" record, too. I have the impression that Nirvana's best form must have been in a live setting, and that record gives a perfect idea of how tight they were when performing. I like most of the songs on "Nevermind", but i prefer to listen to a good soundboard recording, such as 1991-12-28 (that particular performance of "Aneurysm" atsonicpark mentioned is from this show), or the Halloween performance from 1991, for instance. I prefer rawness over glossiness, in this case. I'm still hunting down some live recordings that i'm missing in my collection.

Regarding the Steve Albini thing: I like what he did on "In Utero". His work was mostly successful in the sense that it made the songs sound rawer than on "Nevermind", which i understand is what the band was after when they considered hiring him. Seems to me that he captured fairly well what the band was doing. I don't agree with the idea that it would have been good that he would have produced all of Nirvana's work. Butch Vig, Jack Endino, Steve Fisk, etc... all did good things for Nirvana's sound in some sense. A huge favourite of mine in terms of Nirvana recordings, is the 1991-01-01 studio session at The Music Source in Seattle, and that one was produced by Craig Montgomery, and later remixed by Andy Wallace if i'm not mistaken. It's raw, and it fucking slays....


atsonicpark, Steve Albini in fact has been involved with Low at some point. He did a splendid job on "Secret Name", and "Things We Lost In The Fire".

[atsonicpark]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Does anyone know if Merbow produced other people's albums?

I am pretty sure he had co-production credits on a Hanin Elias album and an Alec empire album. He also played live drums for Alec empire's touring band at one point. He also did production/remix for Sunn.

HIPSTER BEBOP: great post.

also, I should have known THINGS WE LOST IN THE FIRE was produced by him, I just hadn't listened to it in a long time, but I remember thiinking, 'This sounds like Albini' without ever looking into it. I mean, he's produced over a thousand albums, according to him.. sometimes it's hard to keep track. "Frigid Stars" by Codeine also sounds like Albini, or an Albini-worshipper, haha. I really really think "slowcore" was the genre for Albini and Albini-esque producers. Just a perfect recording style for that stuff.

[hipster_bebop_junkie]

Thanks.

I'm probably wrong, but i think he also worked with Low on the "Transmission" EP.

Can't really say i would consider him the best producer around, but i won't deny some records i will enjoy until the day of my death have been recorded by him.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

I agree about In Utero; I don't really understand the Bleach love around here at all.

~Jeremy~

oh but bleach is almost just as good, then i'd say incesticide. I actually never managed to hear nevermind from start to finish, it's certainly the weakest one for me.

[knox]

Originally Posted by keep poppin pimples

the best sounding track on rid of is the mansize version that isn't produced by steve


and i mean he says they fucked with the mix on in utero so i don't know who to blame but the bass sounds awful and it was always one of the best parts of nirvana

i don't mean to insult him because he's done some good stuff, but it's happened a few times that he's worked with people i like and the record has turned out sounding crappier than any of their other work, pj and nirvana are good examples

you're talking about the fact that man-size is a completely different thing, it doesn't have guitars or anything, it's just unexpected. It's probably what makes you feel the track is so amazing, and I agree. Fair enough, but bear in mind as far as I know Albini does not arrange anything, in fact he only accepts taking credit for engineering work. I think that is part of the reason why I admire his work so much, you get the a raw feel as if you can really hear the band and the artist in its most original form, a production that aims to be transparent, like no production at all, as he's not trying to have an input. That really works for some artists, and seems to get this really powerful in-your-face kind of sound.

So I guess we can't talk about him as a producer, but as an engineer. Since he doesn't really interfere, I don't think we can blame him for any bad albums.

As for PJ, I think her best album is 'to bring you my love', great production but that also had a lot to do with the songs and the change in direction. 'Rid of me' wouldn't have sounded so strong without Albini, all you have to do is listen to 'dry' to come to that conclusion. I love loud drums, so maybe I'm being bias, but I don't think anyone can say 'Surfer Rosa" is not the best.

[keep poppin pimples]

i like to bring you my love, can't really compare the production since the music is rather unalike, but i think the sound of that album really works


prefer the sound of the peel sessions to rid of me for raw pj production, would gladly listen to either tho

[the ikara cult]

theres never a bad time to come back to Nirvana.
When i was a teenager In Utero was the only one that i was interested in, but since ive found the rest very nice. Well Done Kurt

[ann ashtray]

Bleach 5/5
Nevermind 4/5
In Utero 3/5
Incesticide 3/5 (Aero Zeppelin, Hairspray Queen, Mexican Seafood, Dive...all great. The rest of that album pretty much blows, though).
Unplugged - 5/5

[Glice]

The Stooges, Melt Banana, Man or Astroman?, Zeni Gava, Whitehouse, The Pixies (just off the top of my head). In fairness, the albums I'm talking about are mostly quite old now.

Really though, I think he's great for bands like Jesus Lizard. It's just his hatred of bass, the capacity to make drums sound flat and that Melt Banana album does sound really, really shit. I know a producer's only as good as the material he's working with, but if you can make genuinely great bands like MOAM or MB sound like shit, you should hang up your headphones.

Otherwise, what ASP said.

And I'll note: Zappa - good producer, should never have been allowed to make his own music. Or breed.

[atsonicpark]

Great post, Glice. MAN OR ASTROMAN album sounds so so so bad, despite the music being so so so good. Gonna have to disagree about Zeni Geva. He did.. Freedom Bondage? I think that album sounds fantastic. actually doesn't sound too much like an Albini production -- there seems to actually be guitar layering overdubs!

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

Anyway, I've never liked In Utero. It has some great songs on it, some of their best even, but also their worst ever. Heart-Shaped Box goes nowhere, Tourettes is boring despite being a minute long, All Apologies is their most boring song ever, Rape Me is awful. Would've made a good EP. It seems like Kurt was wanting to go in a softer direction, but he was also probably burned by the people calling them sellouts and all that. The album is very uncomfortable and hard to sit through, which I guess may be some of the appeal. Live shows around that time fucking killed though, adding Pat Smear was a genius movie.
What kills me about Nirvana is that their best songs -- Blandest, Marigold, Sappy, SPANK THRU!, and so on -- are kinda buried and obscure, in a sense (nothing is really "obscure" because of the internet, but you know; they aren't household name songs). I watched LIVE AT READING dvd, and they really had a good sound live, but they played so many songs in a row that kinda just sounded exactly the same, very formulaic and boring. Only on BLEACH stuff did they really sound amazing, Negative Creep and even the simplicity of School really really worked, because they were creative and interesting. But all those Nevermind songs in a row really really dragged. For their encore, they played Spank THru (god that song rules), D7, Money Will Roll Right In, etc... which sounded AMAZING!

Also, I think "Polly" is just flat-out just a bad song. What's the appeal of that one, again?

...Anyway, I think Kurt/Nirvana definitely had some amazing stuff, but I think the reason I was so down on them for so long was because the stuff that is overplayed didn't do anything for me. Kurt was actually a talented and creative guitar player. BLEACH, INSESTICIDE, part of IN UTERO are amazing. All their b-sides and covers rock. But like I said, listening to MUDDY BANKS is really really does it for me. That's the record. They just sounded so good live, especialyl the tracks with Pat Smear. Also, the "Aneurysm" on that one is probably their best moment, ever.

I disagree! I just listened Bleach, Nevermind, Insesticide and In utero and I noticed that in my opinion the change of songwriting between Bleach and Nevermind is the thing that makes Nirvana great. Of course there is many great songs in Bleach also (Blew, About the girl, Love Buzz, Paper Cuts, Negative Creep and Downer) but I think most of them are quite mediocre. Also in Insesticide is many mediocre songs (Beeswax, Mexican Seafood, Hairspray queen) although I like that punky mood in it. But I think in Nevermind and In Utero Kobain found his composiotion ability and that makes Nirvana great. In my opinion All Apologies is their best song! And I also like both productions, Butch Vig in Nevermind and Steve in In utero.

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by keep poppin pimples

i like to bring you my love, can't really compare the production since the music is rather unalike, but i think the sound of that album really works


prefer the sound of the peel sessions to rid of me for raw pj production, would gladly listen to either tho

I think Rid Of me is a great album, but PJ`s "golden period" started in "To bring you my love" and it has continued since then! And if Albini had been producer of those albums, I think they would have been so fascinating. If I compare producers, John Parish is much more producer in my taste than Steve Albini.