[knox]

when jesus reincarnated in the form of lennon & yoko he said: imagine the world without religion.

now seriously,
the main problem is that most religions claim to be the "only truth" - therefore creating divisions against each other and non-religious people.

although it's just one of those things, if not for religion, race, nationality and culture, human beings will always find a way to hate each other. (and all of those things are used/reinforced to justify actions regarding politics/economy).

human beings define themselves by what they love, and also by what they hate and despise.

i agree that taking measures to make religion a private matter rather than public preaching would probably benefit us all.

what you believe or what you say in the context of your religion does not concern me, but i think what rob is saying is that even today we often see public displays of religion inciting hatred/discrimination/prejudice.

[gualbert]

Originally Posted by knox

the main problem is that most religions claim to be the "only truth" -

Oddly enough, they don't.
I've never heard the pope (any pope) critcizing other religions, including the non-catholic christians.

[knox]

Not the Catholics (now), PR has been a nightmare for them lately.

But you'd be lying if you told me you've been to the mess/mass and they haven't sort of implied that non-Christians are fucked. They even say non-baptized people are fucked.

[knox]

confusing lol:

http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1119111568.htm

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

well, specifically the incident that sparked this thread was a news report about a potential cathedral-sized mosque to be built in Marseille, but the locals are protesting vehemently..

also some recent problems in a similar vein in Belgium, Switzerland, France, England, Germany etc etc...

the reason I was so general, was because as I said, it seems to be a general problem occurring in European countries, and Europeans across borders seem to be united against mosque building, which as I said, will only come to bite them in the ass in the end. I will stand by those words for i-ver, sorry if you don't like it. I would like nothing more in the world then to see all vestiges of the Nazis to be wiped out, destroyed and buried.

you have no idea what your talking about as per usual. i would suggest the reason why a cathederal sized anything being built in marseille is being rejected by the locals is they dont want a huge great building being erected outside their homes. and if you have ever been to auschwitz or any holocaust memorials, i would suggest going to the one in la you would know that they are not disneyesque. be safe in the knowledge that your government is paying $20 million to the upkeep of auschwitz.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I love you my man, but if you really think religion is not DIRECTLY to blame for much of the world's intolerance, racism, and bigotry then you may need to rethink yr positions!

no rob, not religions, intolerance, and I know you are not even remotely naive enough to assume that religion itself creates these things, rather than these things exist and are as much a part of religion as much as any other parts of our societies. The problem is not religion, it is intolerance, bigotry, hatred and racism, and these will exist even beyond religion I assure you, and if you are intolerant and even a bigot against religion your just being counter-productive and contributing to the problem. If people want to be religious that is there right, so long as they do not guise their intolerance and bigotry in veils of religious symbolism and rhetoric, because in all its form, intolerance and bigotry are wrong.

Originally Posted by jon boy

you have no idea what your talking about as per usual. i would suggest the reason why a cathederal sized anything being built in marseille is being rejected by the locals is they dont want a huge great building being erected outside their homes. and if you have ever been to auschwitz or any holocaust memorials, i would suggest going to the one in la you would know that they are not disneyesque. be safe in the knowledge that your government is paying $20 million to the upkeep of auschwitz.

dude, nothing the US government does surprises me anymore

why would the people of Marseille object to it? We have a few lovely mosques of such size and proportion in Los Angeles and we don't have a practicing muslim population even remotely the size of French Muslims..

see here is what countries like the UK and France need to accept, they were colonial powers in islamic regions, and have developed immigration and economic ties with these regions, in fact, correct me if I am wrong, but are not many of these folks now citizens of these countries?

Call me old fashioned, but if you are a citizen in a society, you have a certain right to worship as you see fit, being a minority or not. If these Muslim residents are legal, and some or many are in fact even citizens, should they not have this right? Who are you to say how large their place of worship should be? Am I not wrong to accuse the locals there of intolerance?

I think you miss my point entirely with this thread by the way, the issue is not whether I give a shit one way or another about mosque building in Europe, but rather my comment that if they prohibit these buildings, either through legal or social pressure, then it will only come to bite Europeans in the ass they way Islamic militancy has already brought violence in places like the UK or Spain.. European Muslims seem to be pissed off enough to use violence, something surprisingly enough American Muslims are not doing...

It seems absurd to not let these mosques get built, what is honestly the harm?

In the US our 'colonial' relationship is with the Americas and Asia, and our cities are flooded with these immigrants, and we tolerate and even enjoy our many Buddhists/Hindu temples and shrines, what major city doesn't have an elaborate china town, and of course a ridiculous amount of Mexican and Central American catholic churches and communities which have single-handedly changed the face of American catholicism and in many places in the US represent 75-90% if Catholics.

Muslims are a legal and rightful part of European society, their places of worship are no less valid or appropriate then traditional European ones. Presently in that part of France, there are only 2 legitimate (and small) mosques and most muslims there pray in basements and living rooms..

quit assuming I don't know what I talk about, it is fallacious to try to argue against my credibility and completely side-step the real issues..

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

no rob, not religions, intolerance, and I know you are not even remotely naive enough to assume that religion itself creates these things, rather than these things exist and are as much a part of religion as much as any other parts of our societies. The problem is not religion, it is intolerance, bigotry, hatred and racism, and these will exist even beyond religion I assure you, and if you are intolerant and even a bigot against religion your just being counter-productive and contributing to the problem. If people want to be religious that is there right, so long as they do not guise their intolerance and bigotry in veils of religious symbolism and rhetoric, because in all its form, intolerance and bigotry are wrong.


dude, nothing the US government does surprises me anymore

why would the people of Marseille object to it? We have a few lovely mosques of such size and proportion in Los Angeles and we don't have a practicing muslim population even remotely the size of French Muslims..

see here is what countries like the UK and France need to accept, they were colonial powers in islamic regions, and have developed immigration and economic ties with these regions, in fact, correct me if I am wrong, but are not many of these folks now citizens of these countries?

Call me old fashioned, but if you are a citizen in a society, you have a certain right to worship as you see fit, being a minority or not. If these Muslim residents are legal, and some or many are in fact even citizens, should they not have this right? Who are you to say how large their place of worship should be? Am I not wrong to accuse the locals there of intolerance?

I think you miss my point entirely with this thread by the way, the issue is not whether I give a shit one way or another about mosque building in Europe, but rather my comment that if they prohibit these buildings, either through legal or social pressure, then it will only come to bite Europeans in the ass they way Islamic militancy has already brought violence in places like the UK or Spain.. European Muslims seem to be pissed off enough to use violence, something surprisingly enough American Muslims are not doing...

It seems absurd to not let these mosques get built, what is honestly the harm?

In the US our 'colonial' relationship is with the Americas and Asia, and our cities are flooded with these immigrants, and we tolerate and even enjoy our many Buddhists/Hindu temples and shrines, what major city doesn't have an elaborate china town, and of course a ridiculous amount of Mexican and Central American catholic churches and communities which have single-handedly changed the face of American catholicism and in many places in the US represent 75-90% if Catholics.

Muslims are a legal and rightful part of European society, their places of worship are no less valid or appropriate then traditional European ones. Presently in that part of France, there are only 2 legitimate (and small) mosques and most muslims there pray in basements and living rooms..

quit assuming I don't know what I talk about, it is fallacious to try to argue against my credibility and completely side-step the real issues..

once again vague theories you formulated based on nothing but your vague mind. i cant be bothered trying to make you see that, its just tiring.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by gualbert

Oddly enough, they don't.
I've never heard the pope (any pope) critcizing other religions, including the non-catholic christians.

Does burning protestants count as criticism?

[gualbert]

Originally Posted by knox

But you'd be lying if you told me you've been to the mess/mass and they haven't sort of implied that non-Christians are fucked.

Right, it's "sort of implied", not to say it's more in people minds than in the priest speech: I've been to catholic mass in the 80s and I never heard a word about or against other religions.

Originally Posted by pbradley

Does burning protestants count as criticism?

Hmm, no.
It was a long time ago, now the catholic church is not a political power anymore (at least not directly).
(yet cats don't breed dogs, I know)

[Glice]

Nostra Aetate sets out the Church's relationship to non-Christian religions.

Lumen Gentium make clear what the 'internal' approach of the church is.

There's a lot of debate within Christian Theology as to precisely what the consequences of Vatican II are - there's a few people who'd side with the 'non-Christian (and non-Catholic) religions are wrong' (Exclusivist) and plenty of inclusivist or pluralist theologians. I personally think the Cathechism is pretty clear as to what Catholicism is about, and it's very difficult to maintain Catholicism by saying that it's merely one of many religions rather than the 'true' path - what is significant about VII is that it explicitly states that non-Christian religions are no longer ripe for damnation, but they are mislead but good cousins to Catholicism.

I could go on at much greater length about this, but I'll spare you.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by gualbert

Oddly enough, they don't.
I've never heard the pope (any pope) critcizing other religions, including the non-catholic christians.

are you fucking kidding? the Pope claims himself INFALLIBLE. he claims himself and has claimed himself the sole true conduit to god. fucking delusional.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by pbradley

Does burning protestants count as criticism?

exactly.

[gualbert]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the Pope claims himself INFALLIBLE.

never heard that.
Do you have sources or links?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by gualbert

never heard that.
Do you have sources or links?

any catholic knows that the pope is infallible in theological matters. he can still piss outside the toilet, but if he sez you're the devil, you're it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

[Rob Instigator]

There is a reason they call it DOGMA

[gualbert]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

any catholic knows that the pope is infallible in theological matters.

No!!
I've never been told that when I was a catholic.
I guess being a catholic is not a very good position to learn what catholicism is about.

[Rob Instigator]

but the problem lies in that religious people, and the Pope specifically, see EVERYTHING as a theological matter, from birtrh control to what to eat.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by knox

Not the Catholics (now), PR has been a nightmare for them lately.

But you'd be lying if you told me you've been to the mess/mass and they haven't sort of implied that non-Christians are fucked. They even say non-baptized people are fucked.

Tis true indeed the non baptised kids are doomed to an after life in limbo. That is why they baptize u at birth. Plus there is an underlying strong dislike of the Penecostals and Baptists, though this is not often publicly displayed.

[Glice]

Limbus Puerorum (children's limbo) was stricken from the records a long time ago, as I understand it. I think in the 1850s?

[Rob Instigator]

the Catholic church holds that, technically, anyone baptised in any "christian" church is actually a member of the Catholic church. don;t know why or how.

This is just one tiny part of all the dogma the catholic chuirch holds as infallible. (read the rest here)

The Catholic Church

1. The Catholic Church was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ.
2. Christ founded the Catholic Church in order to continue his work of redemption for all time.
3. Christ gave his Church a hierarchical constitution.
4. The powers bestowed on the Apostles have descended to the Bishops.
5. Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the whole Catholic Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.
6. According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time.
7. The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the Bishops of Rome.
8. The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Catholic Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church.
9. The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.
10. By virtue of Divine right, the bishops possess an ordinary power of government over their dioceses.
11. Christ founded the Catholic Church.
12. Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church.
13. In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals, the Catholic Church is infallible.
14. The primary object of the Infallibility is the formally revealed truths of Christian Doctrine concerning faith and morals.
15. The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to he held by all the faithful.
16. The Church founded by Christ is unique and one.
17. The Church founded by Christ is holy.
18. The Church founded by Christ is catholic.
19. The Church founded by Christ is apostolic.
20. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.(1)