[atari 2600]

Prove me wrong. If The Usher will please just honestly list the contents of the 80 GB hard drive, we can put this to bed. Or if that's too much too ask, then please list a few of the Sonic Youth shows in the interests of resolving this. How many of these are on the hard drive? I downloaded probably two-thirds of them from dime and most of the other third come from snail-mail trades. I have a keen memory as to which is which. I am also familiar with the lists that other SY collectors have, and at this point, there are very few out there that I do not have. I am wondering though who has the 80 GB hard drive. Perhaps it's sonicl that has it and not The Usher. Neither of you were clear about which one you purchased. I suppose it doesn't matter since both of you probably have many of the same shows on the drives that rappard downloaded from dime.

The Usher, sonicl, and others have expressed that they are grateful for the transactions they've had with rappard. I have a feeling that most of the people who he deals with, even the ones he more amply charges, approve of the experience. He's careful about the methods and language he uses when making offers. All signs point that he displays a lot of experience picking the right target and curating good karma with others. I suspect he makes a meager profit and doesn't get too greedy, after all, that would only cause him to be singled-out after a short time. But shows are still being sold, and that's the concern; for all we know, he gets contacted later after he makes a topic post by people eagerly offering to pay whatever to get the same concert recordings. If you read his posts closely, you can even detect the catch-me-if-you-can arrogance just oozing through his words and it's also evident in his actions by altering posts in this thread.
And of course he would be straight-up with Tokolosh who is a countryman that would be rather familiar with the postage rates in The Netherlands.

At first, rappard claimed that all 80 GB of the second drive were uncirculated shows. He did this because he wanted to cover his ass in case a discerning reader happened across his post who might object to him offering shows he downloaded off dime as a bonus incentive for purchasing a hard drive.

I quoted that post and made it known that I didn't believe him that the shows were all uncirculated. He later went back and edited that same post to read "lots of uncirculated" because he knows that I know that it is highly unprobable that he could have acquired, in just the last few months, some 120+ never-before-seeded SY & related shows that virtually no one else has.
So tell me, if I'm so off-base, then why did he lie that they were all uncirculated? And why did he later alter his post to convey a different meaning? It's because he knew a post just like this one from me was coming now that the owner of the 80 GB hard drive has posted in this thread. He did it to try and avoid getting caught in a boldface lie that would serve to underscore his deceitful character.

rappard is a taper and prolific seeder at dime and I've enjoyed the fruits of his efforts myself.
Making all these accusations is not without its pangs for me. I would like to believe I'm wrong, but good sense proves otherwise. With the changing of his wording, he's now basically (perhaps unwittingly) admitted with his edit that a lot of the shows on the hard drive come from dime. And it was a relief for me to read that he had edited in an attempt at subterfuge (a botched attempt, but one nonetheless), because now I am certain that I am right.

By way of some explanation, I've remained ambivalent towards his other questionable dealings for years, but when I saw that he had sold a second hard drive in this thread and made the dubious claim that they are all uncirculated shows, I considered if I should do anything for a good little while. Eventually I felt I had to react accordingly.

[atari 2600]

original version (9/05/07):

Originally Posted by rappard

Bump! I'm probably going to upgrade my 80 GB portable (USB 2.0, 2.5") drive soon - so if anyone's up for 80 GB of uncirculated Sonic Youth / Moore / Ranaldo shows, PM me or drop me an email at rappard [at] gmail [dot] com.

Please note that (unlike my earlier offer) this offer applies to Americans as well, since airmail shipping will probably be around the $6 mark.

Because he realizes the bulk of my original suspicion arose from the uncirculated recordings claim, he made this edited version (9/24/07) after The Usher and sonicl posted:

Originally Posted by rappard

Bump! I'm probably going to upgrade my 80 GB portable (USB 2.0, 2.5") drive soon - so if anyone's up for 80 GB of with lots of uncirculated Sonic Youth / Moore / Ranaldo shows, PM me or drop me an email at rappard [at] gmail [dot] com.

Please note that (unlike my earlier offer) this offer applies to Americans as well, since airmail shipping will probably be around the $6 mark.

I wanted to post the second version in case he decides to change it yet again. The second quote above should continue to match this:
http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sho...8&postcount=12

Oh, and before you can make some lame reply, rappard, there's a huge difference between editing for clarity and editing to change a crucial meaning of your words. There was no "lots of" in your original version that was posted here for months. For fuck's sake, you even made a point to bold "uncirculated" to make a big show of it. And your pre-emptive strike concerning editing only proves to further illustrate your preparedness for deception.

[rappard]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

original version (9/05/07):
Because he realizes the bulk of my original suspicion arose from the uncirculated recordings claim
[snip]

Yeah yeah, that was not carefully phrased - sue me. Have you never changed the wording of any of your posts in this thread or anywhere else? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Or, I could act like you have done in the past and delete all my posts in this thread....

Again, I've yet to see proof I've made a profit, despite your vague claims and accusations - I find it telling that you zoom in on this particular phrase, but fail to address any of my (or other people's) other points.

Honestly atari, grow up - your behaviour on this board towards me and others has occasionally been rude/erratic/weird. We all have our off days, but you're trying to make a point where there isn't one. Is this all because I mocked your .sig on two separate occasions? If I were at all like you, I would almost think so - you're certainly coming across as someone with a chip on his shoulder.

[rappard]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

[snip]
For all we know, he gets contacted later after he makes a topic post by people eagerly offering to pay whatever to get the same concert recordings.
If you read his posts closely, you can even detect the catch-me-if-you-can arrogance just oozing through his words and it's also evident in his actions by altering posts in this thread.
[snip]
attempt, but one nonetheless), because now I am certain that I am right.
[snip]

"For all we know, he gets contacted later after he makes a topic post by people eagerly offering to pay whatever to get the same concert recordings." You'll be *very* hard pressed to find someone like that - they only exist in your mind. Just a pointless insinuation.

"Arrogance"? <irony>Well, you're certainly a very close reader</irony> - that's the first time I've been accused of having an attitude.

"Posts"? I edited one that was not carefully phrased. You've edited far more than that in this thread (and elsewhere).

"I am certain that I am right" - well, then nothing I or others say is going to change your mind, now is it? So this will be my last post, since contuining this discussion is apparently pointless.

[atari 2600]

It's not pointless at all and you know this. Your revised post implies that most of the shows are circulated ones. Obviously, you downloaded a good many of the circulating shows from dime. Therefore, you basically admitted your guilt that you sold two hard drives full of shows from dime. You should've stuck to your original post, rappard, because you botched your attempt at subterfuge.
And my conjecture about people contacting you because of your threads and eagerly and willingly offering to pay money is not a far-fetched one. I have had a couple of traders offer me money in the hopes of continuing to trade with me after we had traded for every recording on their list that I wanted but didn't have already. Of course, I declined in both cases. I also remember many a post to this board with people offering compensation when requesting a certain show they wanted.
It's not out of the realm of possibility at all, and you know this. Your playing dumb only sheds more light on your insincerity. And as anyone can plainly notice, you posted this thread's "For Sale" solicitation in 'Sonic Gossip' rather than 'Sonic Sharing.' Maybe that's since one has to be registered and logged-in to view the 'Sonic Sharing' section.

There was no "lots of" in your original version that was posted here for months. You even made a point to bold "uncirculated" to make a big show of it. Your last two posts are a pathetically comical attempt at misdirection.

Now, again, if The Usher or sonicl will just please post what shows are on the hard drives, it will be a case-closed situation. Prove me wrong. Hey, maybe you can enlist them to lie for you, rappard. After all, it shouldn't be too hard. They certainly seem sychophantically snowed and utterly unconcerned already and demonstrate little respect for ethics or the truth. Prove--me--wrong.

[nicfit]

wait a sec--
here

Originally Posted by atari 2600

And why did he later alter his post to convey a different meaning?

Sorry to underline this again, but coming from you this is a quite laughable "accuse"... you gotta admit that, it's not that you just edit things to make them more clear (as you seem to imply in a subsequent post)..

As I said before (and I won't repeat), to an extent I can understand what you say, but I still thinks that he's not "selling shows", he sold the "contenitors" (is that the right word?) where they're stored,
and looks like now you think the same:

Originally Posted by atari2600

Therefore, you basically admitted your guilt that you sold two hard drives full of shows from dime

So, yeah the guys who took them paid the hd, not the shows, this probably should "put to bed" the thread better than a list of the content.

According to the usher (if i'm not wrong) its cost was more little than the current market prices for used HD, so looks like the "filled with shows" part didn't mean rappard raised the price to get a profit.

About the "ethic" implications, good karma and stuff:
what about your atari's picks in lossy format with material available in lossless format?
You gotta admit that's not much "ethic" coming from a so strict and serious trader, isn't it?


I'm not trying to turn this discussion in a "let's talk shit about atari", you know (well, I think you know) I don't "hate" you or anything, I just plain think your efforts to be a sort of "truth paladin" are quite misdirected in this case.
Andrei summed it up pretty well, it might not be "fair" to advertise an HD sale this way, from a certain pov, but from that to say rappard is one of the "bad guys" the jump is simply too long.
I already said my 2cents about the "not really b+p" things, so I think I have not much more to contribute in this thread.
peace out.
You guys made me lose the bowling session the other day.

oh, a stupid "final note":

Originally Posted by Mighty Jesus

Quotes are not much reliable on here, you (not you=atari or anyone in particular) could make fake ones at will !

[The Usher]

Man, this is becoming tiring.

I have no intention of listing what's on the hard drive, because firstly I have better things to do with my time, and secondly, I think Atari 2600 needs to calm down.
The price of the hard drive was LESS than a second hand drive, the postage was LESS than it probably cost to post it.
I can think of easier ways for Rappard to make money than selling cheap hard drives with low postage.

Atari 2600, you are beginning to sound like a mad man.

Oh, and another thing, if Rappard wants the contents of the hard drives listed, then I thinks it's his choice to do so.

[sonicl]

I'm not up to speed with the morals and etiquette of trading taped shows, I'm afraid. All I know is that I now have a lot of recordings of Sonic Youth and associated shows to which, as a result of my low Dime ratio, I would not otherwise have had access. Whether they are uncirculated or not makes no difference to me, I am just pleased to have them to listen to.

That's my lot, I have nothing further to say on the matter. I entered into a private transaction with rappard, and private is how it will stay. It is not open to audit.

[nicfit]

Originally Posted by The Usher

The price of the hard drive was LESS than a second hand drive.

yeah, my bad english strikes again, wrote "more little" as in "littler" (?) instead of a simple and more correct "lower"...
So, nobody cares about my missed bowling session, apparently.

[atari 2600]

Whatever...all I asked is that you either list a few of the shows on the hard drives or look at my list and tell me if you had some of the same shows in the interest of resolving this.

Let's face facts. rappard sells shows, but you guys don't care.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

I also realize you've been doing "B&P offers" to a PayPal account for years and are now selling hard drives, and that a profit margin of even one penny qualifies as selling shows

Id call that selling services personally

[the ikara cult]

oh and Atari 2600, i like the things you post even if they stir up debate but when you go "your nerves are showing..." like a psychic from hell you really do remind me of this bloke

 

[atari 2600]

Yes, doing a blank and postage with no blank and no pre-paid postage by charging a pre-agreed upon disc-mailer/blank disc/shipping quote is selling shows unless both parties are aware exactly how much the materials and freight costs to the penny.
One cannot charge for time or services if one is trading bootlegs. This is the accepted way shows are traded and have always been traded.

And, of course, posting messages to a board to sell hard drives filled with bootlegs as a bonus is blatant selling.

I insinuated that rappard's "nerves were showing" because he was smugly taunting me by insisting I had no "solid proof."

All I know is I don't want to see any more "for sale" posts on this board. Not even concert tickets. (He's sold these before also). Why? Because people in this internet medium cannot be trusted. And no more threads notifying the whole board of ebay bootlegs either...
Another rappard-related SY release!
...no more covert or overt selling, period.

I just wish the people perusing this thread could have known rappard at the old board. All he ever did there (& this is no exaggeration) was post his "B&P offers," and most of the time, at least one person would call him a show seller in his B&P threads. Being a relative newbie at that time, I was rather naive concerning the ethics of trading shows, and, like the people in this thread, didn't think he was doing anything all that wrong or even improper at all.

Nowadays, he has his weak-minded supporters/enforcers, and is branching out to become even craftier and more slippery.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by _tunic_

my 2 cents:
- rappard keeps on sending me stuff, most of thie times he doesn't expect anything in return. Sometimes I need to send it forward (after copying the discs for myself). If so then stamps are included.
- 90% of the SY shows I've shared on Dime were his files
- to me B&P is completely outdated. I would rather pay someone for postage and perhaps a DVD/CDR, then to having to take the effort to send that person a disc. But I'm extremely lazy, plus the postoffice is always closed when I have time to go to it. It's much easier for me to transfer a small amount of money through Paypal.

if you have something against each other, please discuss it privately.

thank you

Another satisfied customer!

[the ikara cult]

Well some kind soul on this board once burned me a DVD of 1991 The Year Punk Broke and posted it to me, without ANY charge simply because i ASKED.
Now this can be percieved as stealing because this person did all that and posted it to me at their own cost, so what is wrong about getting a little something when you provide a service?

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Well some kind soul on this board once burned me a DVD of 1991 The Year Punk Broke and posted it to me, without ANY charge simply because i ASKED.
Now this can be percieved as stealing because this person did all that and posted it to me at their own cost, so what is wrong about getting a little something when you provide a service?

Because, unfortunately, if you give people an inch, they tend to take a mile.

Trading ethics all derive from the Grateful Dead's taping policy that recording and sharing is all fine and good as long as no money exchanges hands.

The policy pays respect to common human decency and the artists themselves. And anything less is the forte of soulless chumps.

Since people circumvent this creedo for material gain via overt selling (on ebay for instance) or covert selling (like rappard), most artists, their labels, and the venues themselves, disallow concert recording.

Hence, recording these days usually has to be done at one's own risk of being removed from the venue, or possibly prosecuted.

And every bad apple trader/show seller only causes more artists to become jaded and disallow recording or the posting of torrents of their live material.

Every abuser only brings us one day closer to the day that BitTorrent will be banned from the internet.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

One cannot charge for time or services if one is trading bootlegs. This is the accepted way shows are traded and have always been traded.

And, of course, posting messages to a board to sell hard drives filled with bootlegs as a bonus is blatant selling.

I insinuated that rappard's "nerves were showing" because he was smugly taunting me by insisting I had no "solid proof."

All I know is I don't want to see any more "for sale" posts on this board. Not even concert tickets. (He's sold these before also). Why? Because people in this internet medium cannot be trusted. And no more threads notifying the whole board of ebay bootlegs either...
Another rappard-related SY release!
...no more covert or overt selling, period

The time and effort of accruing shows IS effort on someones part, i dont like it when people sell CDRs of gigs that are available on Torrent sites but this situation is different
Clearly posting the sale of hard to get hold of Sonic Youth produce at the Sonic Youth board you will know that being dishonest is going to make the knowledgeable stand up and discredit you. And yet No-one else has come out against mr Rappard.

[pbradley]

Atari reminds me more and more of...

 

But this isn't to say he's right or wrong because I don't care either way.

[rappard]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

[snip]
All I know is I don't want to see any more "for sale" posts on this board. Not even concert tickets. (He's sold these before also). Why? Because people in this internet medium cannot be trusted. And no more threads notifying the whole board of ebay bootlegs either...
Another rappard-related SY release!
...no more covert or overt selling, period.

I just wish the people perusing this thread could have known rappard at the old board. All he ever did there (& this is no exaggeration) was post his "B&P offers," and most of the time, at least one person would call him a show seller in his B&P threads. Being a relative newbie at that time, I was rather naive concerning the ethics of trading shows, and, like the people in this thread, didn't think he was doing anything all that wrong or even improper at all.
[snip]

Breaking my own vow of silence here, but if someone is lying outright I have no choice but to speak up:

Since when do you decide what's acceptable and what's not? Are you a moderator now? I sold one ticket (so much for you using the plural) for less than cost. I could have gone to ATP last year but at the time my girlfriend was three months pregnant - despite missing some great shows I still feel I made the right choice.

And I posted an eBay link to a bootleg that probably originated from one of my recordings - how is this unacceptable? Should Chris also remove the bootleg section from his discography?

"I just wish the people perusing this thread could have known rappard at the old board. All he ever did there (& this is no exaggeration) was post his "B&P offers," and most of the time, at least one person would call him a show seller in his B&P threads. Being a relative newbie at that time, I was rather naive concerning the ethics of trading shows, and, like the people in this thread, didn't think he was doing anything all that wrong or even improper at all." - An outright lie. I posted announcements of my torrents and downloads all the time, and participated in some other threads (mostly ATP-related, if I recall correctly). Yes, I did make the occasional B&P offer for people not on broadband, but I don't recall someone calling me a seller - isn't it odd that none of them have come forward again (although not everyone from the old board has signed up again for this one)? I also remember at least one Christmas charity run where I gave away CD-Rs and DVD-Rs away for free (no strings attached, I swallowed postage).

Also (and this is what bugs me the most): Atari makes some vague accusations, and then asks me to prove him wrong! That's completely fallacious reasoning - "so when did you stop beating your wife?" the most famous example.

"Because people in this internet medium cannot be trusted." - well, you certainly can't be trusted to adhere to normal rules of logic and reasoning. Don't you find it telling that you still have no supporters in this thread?

[Moshe]

Common Atari, I think you have gone too far. Rappad was never using this board for money. In fact I remember a few occasions when he offered free stuff. Look here:
http://216.70.73.169/gossip/showthre...hlight=charity

I even remember how hard it was for him to give up his ATP ticket.
On that ATP, while I hardly knew him, Rappard also made on his account a few international phone calls just to make sure I got my tickets all right. So I think this thread should go away.