[samuel]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

What Rob said is technically correct, but in reality the American dream is a subconsciously capitalist ideology imposed on the middle class for oppressing the poor.

Oh. I see. The middle class is to blame for anybody being poor.
I might as well give every other paycheck to my high school drop-out buddy with a baby.
That would be fair.

[Rob Instigator]

the american dream is that NO ONE is ever finished. redemption and second chances abound.

even a high school dropout can, THROUGH HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION, become a master of industry, or a leading politician, or a famous star, or whatever pinnacle of their chosen profession.

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by samuel

Oh. I see. The middle class is to blame for anybody being poor.
I might as well give every other paycheck to my high school drop-out buddy with a baby.
That would be fair.

How did you get that out of what I said? I said the upper class enforces poverty by convincing the middle class that anyone who is poor is poor because they're not working hard enough, which is false.

Case in point: "high school drop-out with a baby" does not always mean "rightfully poor," but the upper class would like the middle class to believe that is always the case. (And in no way did I imply that it applies to everyone who is poor. Some people are just lazy.)

Also, I'm not saying that anyone who is in the upper class or middle class is intentionally perpetuating this. It's ingrained in our way of thinking.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the american dream is that NO ONE is ever finished. redemption and second chances abound.

even a high school dropout can, THROUGH HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION, become a master of industry, or a leading politician, or a famous star, or whatever pinnacle of their chosen profession.

That is the idea, but the problem is that it's not true for a lot of the population.

[SonicBebs]

its freedom (unless your gay, or not U.S friendly)

[Sonic Youth 37]

To piss is someone's coffee and get away with it.

[RdTv]

Yes, rob is the most on point as far as the concept of being rewarded for your hard work goes. Reality, well tis a different matter (insert large ramble that throws around words such as: capitalist,socio-econimic, greedy, oppresive, class,corruption.)

[_slavo_]

I kind of got the idea what that expression might mean.
it's the fact that unless you're a fucking lazy asshole, you have a high possibility to earn yourself a good career and a decent middle-class life. because there are possibilites to take advantage of. and everything seems so much easier there than anywhere else I've been to...like buying a car, getting a good education and yada yada. you just have to work hard, that's it.
but maybe i just didn't spend a long enough time in the US to get the right point.

[pbradley]

Excuse me for being the hermeneut, but I deny that there is any one correct interpretation of the American dream. It is a sock in which people place their own dreams: profit, religious freedom, intellectual freedom, a meaningful future, etc.

But at the end of the day, it still is just a dream.

[SonicBebs]

so are the people who are living on the streets or who are unemployed just lazy? is that it? Is New Orleans a lazy city?

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by _slavo_

I kind of got the idea what that expression might mean.
it's the fact that unless you're a fucking lazy asshole, you have a high possibility to earn yourself a good career and a decent middle-class life. because there are possibilites to take advantage of. and everything seems so much easier there than anywhere else I've been to...like buying a car, getting a good education and yada yada. you just have to work hard, that's it.
but maybe i just didn't spend a long enough time in the US to get the right point.

That is exactly the point.

It's just that there are a ton of people who cannot make it work no matter how hard they try. Achieving the American dream does often require luck, or having come from a "well-equipped" family (whatever that might mean, depending on what you're looking at.)

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

.That is the idea, but the problem is that it's not true for a lot of the population.

It is only not true in the sense that people keep themselves down, whether by continuing associations that lead to negative things, or by gult or shame at "ditching" people who are otherwise holding you back.
THERE ARE NO MORE EXCUSES.
a poor ass half black half white, raised by a not-too-there mom for a decade then snt to his grandmother in hawaii because his mom did not want him to be raised in indonesia's fucked up violent mysoginist culture (as she saw it) has worked his ass off, and become president.

there are no more excuses.

[Rob Instigator]

we are talking about a DREAm here, not reality, not the doldrums of day to day life,. but a dream, a hope, an ideal to strive for and towards, you know?

sure lots stands in one's way, but it is still a good dream I think.

and of course, this applies in many other nations, although INDIA is definitely not one. (caste system. an untouchable will never, no matter how industrious or well-intended, manage to raise himself to an exlated Brahman class type fella.)

[acousticrock87]

I get what you're saying, but I don't believe that at all. It is easier than in a lot of other countries, but that's all. The concept of the "American dream" convinces us to ignore the poor because "they have no excuse," and that is my concern over the whole issue.

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

It is only not true in the sense that people keep themselves down, whether by continuing associations that lead to negative things, or by gult or shame at "ditching" people who are otherwise holding you back.
THERE ARE NO MORE EXCUSES.
a poor ass half black half white, raised by a not-too-there mom for a decade then snt to his grandmother in hawaii because his mom did not want him to be raised in indonesia's fucked up violent mysoginist culture (as she saw it) has worked his ass off, and become president.

there are no more excuses.

your not serious here are you?

[Rob Instigator]

pbrad, there is a specific thing which is referred to as the american dream. it is not and was never intended to ba a catch-all for anyone's desires.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SonicBebs

your not serious here are you?

dead serious. I ain't laughing.

[RdTv]

^Well, yes, the homeless is another issue. While many have legitimate problems and things beyond their control( this actually applies to everyone when you think about it) to warrant their current situation. A lot of homeless folk are their by choice, or lack of making a choice. The US government has all types of aid programs and special services to ''help'' people get food, housing, college degree, medical care, etc... Many of the homeless are basically choosing not to take advantage. everyone has bad times, and yes, your background has a lot to do with where you could start out in the real world, but its non-sense to believe that everysingle homeless person is a victim of anything more than this system which effects all of us.

You may have had a family, you may have been fired, you may lost your house, you may have had countless bad things happen, one after another. Escaping with the help from crack and meth won't help you with any of it.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

we are talking about a DREAm here, not reality, not the doldrums of day to day life,. but a dream, a hope, an ideal to strive for and towards, you know?

I've seen you rant before against the promise of heaven after death as an opiate of the people.

If these are both dreams, what saves the former from condemnation?

[SonicBebs]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

dead serious. I ain't laughing.

ok, i get the stuff about possibilities and ideals (and quite admire it) but you cant say that homeless people (for instance) are there because they are lazy and deserve to be? Or that the only reason people aren't rich is because they dont work hard enough?

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

pbrad, there is a specific thing which is referred to as the american dream. it is not and was never intended to ba a catch-all for anyone's desires.

This entire thread is evidence against your assertion.