[ann ashtray]

Why were guns invented to begin with, and how has the world changed since that time?

[knox]

It's not what I consider, it's statistics. Facts are facts.

This isn't pissing in alleyways.

There are many things that YOU can't consider because you don't know the OTHER side of it (the one abroad). I know, but you clearly don't wanna listen to that.

I'm almost sure that you don't know what it is like to go out everyday worried about the REAL possibility you'll get shot randomly. That is REAL for some people and I've seen it and I know that could be minimized.

And that is why I feel strongly about it, because a lot of those deaths could have been avoided, and none of us are any more important than any of those people who died in vain.

I sincerely hope that you never lose a loved one over the cowardice of a gun, but I assume you your views would be different if you did.

So this is it, THE END.

[knox]

Originally Posted by pbradley

I've never once been mugged nor have known anyone who has

well.

[ann ashtray]

I've lost two friends due to automobile accidents.

I know MANY people that own guns. I'd go as far as to say most people that I know own guns...

I only ever met one person (not exactly a friend, but I knew him well....) that died via being shot.

If there was an end, you would have stopped already....but you can't because my side is STILL (and will continue...) to win.

Sorry, knox.

[pbradley]

I remember seeing a great series on the History Channel about the history of the gun before the channel went to shit.

The first firearms were invented by the Chinese for feudal warfare and then made their way to Europe in the late Dark Ages for European warfare.

[knox]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

I've lost two friends due to automobile accidents.

I know MANY people that own guns. I'd go as far as to say most people that I know own guns...

I only ever met one person (not exactly a friend, but I knew him well....) that died via being shot.

If there was an end, you would have stopped already....but you can't because my side is STILL (and will continue...) to win.

Sorry, knox.

I lost an uncle to an automobile accident. But fortunately, automobiles are not being used to control and terrorize entire communities. I've met a lot of people who were shot, I've had guns pointed at me, and I've seen people being shot. So yeah, you win. The dead people lose. It's a game, you win. Rejoice.

[pbradley]

Knox should own a gun to protect herself.

She should also play Carmageddon.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

I lost an uncle to automobile accidents. But fortunately, automobiles are not being used to control and terrorize entire communities. I've met a lot of people who were shot, I've had guns pointed at me, and I've seen people being shot. So yeah, you win. It's a game.

It is a game, agreed. Everything is a game...you've been playing one all along.

Yr cards include drawing false assumptions...again, I know someone that was shot. I've been threatened (once) with gun violence (even though I didn't see the actual gun), and I did indeed walk into a robbery once at gun point...that's a story I don't wish to go into...but, yeah....you aren't the only person that has dealt with shit.
And for the ten millionth time....most people that own guns don't WANT to kill anyone more than a driver wishes to get into an accident.

Risks...they are mandatory. Guns might as well be mandatory because they aren't going anywhere.

[pbradley]

Sway should buy a gun to protect himself from all the crazies.

[knox]

Some people don't wanna get the big picture.

No, sorry, you don't know anything about violence. Not like I do.
And that's the truth and you're probably "lucky" like that.

[ann ashtray]

I will....winning feels nice.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by pbradley

Sway should buy a gun to protect himself from all the crazies.

But, I'm not paranoid. I realize the risks and am not afraid of them.....I'm crazy, you crazy, everybody crazy. Very few are crazy enough to ever pull a trigger.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by amerikangod

I can't be bothered to read over thirty pages of posts, but I've got a shit brewing in me and I need to kill some time before I can work this brown butt-baby out and then go to sleep. SO PLEASE ENJOY MY TWO CENTS.

I support gun ownership. I'm perfectly happy with guns being regulated, and I would support less regulation in some areas and more regulation in others in regards to the law. I'd be happy if getting a license to own a firearm involved a basic (and free) gun safety class. I don't think the general public should be able to purchase automatic or military grade weapons. I do support harsh prison sentences for people carrying illegal firearms.

And I do think that gun ownership reflects a basic human right. Not specifically the right to own a gun per say, but the the right to protect yourself, to take your well-being into your own hands and to not be forced to rely on others. Since guns are the weapon of this era, they would be the most sensible way to protect oneself (especially since adequate protection of oneself would require that you be at least on equal footing with those that pose a threat around you.)

And yes, having guns out there, even properly regulated, will cause some violence and some accidents. But so do most things. People hurt themselves on motherfucking stairs, drown in pools, drink themselves to death, and eat shitty food that kills them. And automobiles, HOLY SHIT do so many people die because of car accidents. And I understand that most of these things (cars aside) normally only hurt the person involved in them, whereas guns can kill innocent bystanders... but as I said, so can cars. And they do, much, much more frequently. I'd happily accept more driving regulations and awareness, but taking away cars would be ludicrous.

The best way to prevent yourself from being an innocent bystander in a car-related incident? Awareness. Sure, you can't avoid everyone else's jackass mistakes or freak accidents, but watching out for other people fucking up and not putting yourself in stupid situations goes a long way. Practice that same awareness with guns. It won't save you from getting caught in a drive-by shooting, but neither will obeying all of the traffic laws save you if a drunk driver (or worse yet, some dumb cunt texting their friend) comes careening into your lane.

My point is, living is often dangerous. In many ways we should remove those dangers the best we can. Other times, the cost of these additional dangers is worth what these things offer us.

And yes, I've seen guns get pulled out when they shouldn't have, I've seen people get shot, and I know a couple of people that died due to gun violence. But I know plenty of other people that have died over way more mundane shit, and I think there are far greater societal threats that need to be addressed.

Agreed 100%.

[ann ashtray]

Only if I had the ability to word things so well...

Repped.

[knox]

Originally Posted by amerikangod

And yes, I've seen guns get pulled out when they shouldn't have, I've seen people get shot, and I know a couple of people that died due to gun violence. But I know plenty of other people that have died over way more mundane shit, and I think there are far greater societal threats that need to be addressed.

That could be someone's perspective when they are not seeing groups use guns to control entire communities (and don't tell me poor people can buy THOSE guns, and even if they did, there'd be some serious genocide there), places in certain countries that the only term to describe it is civil war. There are places on Earth where people's lives are really shit, and the chances of something happening to you have nothing to do with awareness or a casuality, they are real.

Of course other social threats have to be addressed but that takes a long time. But you can regulate the industry NOW and fairly easily and save thousands of lives. This is something DOABLE. I'm hoping most countries will sign the UN Treaty, but no surprise, US is the only country that seems to be resisting it.

We know that's possible, because we've seen many places regulate and limit guns and really see a decrease in homicide rates. That is just a fact, it's there to be seen and if people can be saved, why not? Which "liberty" principles should come before human life? In fact, I've seen a DRAMATIC decrease myself since the government started paying people to return their guns and destroying every gun every taken from civilians/criminals.

There isn't much "awareness" that'll make your life less shit if you're living in a violent town in Mexico, for example.

It's about time countries start taking responsibility for the repercussions of their doings in other places.

Cutting those deaths by let's say, half is pretty fucking doable. All you have to do is start introducing regulations to gun industry and ownership. Like I said before, 1,000 million legally purchased guns "go missing" every year. There is a loophole and those are the bits of information that a lot of people have been conveniently ignoring in this debate.

This is the homicide rate in ONE year by every 100,000 inhabitants in these cities:

Washington D.C. had a homicide rate of 45.8 homicides per 100,000 residents, Detroit had 42.0, Memphis had 24.7, Baltimore had 38.3, Chicago had 22.2

Are most of those stabbings? I doubt. I agree there are many OTHER factors to tackle in order to reduce violence, probably more important ones. But on the other hand I know you can easily, within the span of few years cut that by half at least.

The overall homicide rate in the US/100,000 is over 5.

Homicide rate in the United Kingdom by 100,000 inhabitants:
1,49

[knox]

I didn't say complete disarmament I've been saying there needs to be more regulation, a lot more. The weapons become more and more powerful with techonology, but laws and regulations haven't been updated.

The first priority is to regulate the industry, and then ownership, and that's where people have been getting all butthurt about it: it has to be a permit rather than a right.

[ann ashtray]

What about all millions of guns floating around that have already been bought and paid for? We gonna get the police to confiscate them, Knox?

[knox]

you mean from civilians? they can ask them all to re-apply for permits.
in some places, they have urged people to hand them in, and it worked.
in other places, they got paid or got tax reduction.

as for confiscating guns from criminals, they already do.
and then this is should be done
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:q.../armas.jpg&t=1

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by knox

you mean from civilians? they can ask them all to re-apply for permits.
in some places, they have urged people to hand them in, and it worked.
in other places, they got paid or got tax reduction.

as for confiscating guns from criminals, they already do.
and then this is should be done
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:q.../armas.jpg&t=1

how could "re-applying for permits" for guns that I already own change anything? If I'm a law abiding citizen which like 99.9% of gun buyers are, than this is a ridiculous waste of time, money and resources. Criminals will continue to posses them by any means not to mention find means of gaining an advantage by form of weapon over others. I'm not crazy and I'm responsible. Criminals are not accountable and capable of putting me or my families life in danger and with no regard to laws or consequences at will. I observe and appreciate my ability to keep the advantage over them by owning a firearm.

Your "house security alarm" is a cute story and works well for commercials. I have a good home security system. I love it, but only because if any seal is broken, I'm alerted and just as soon I'm gun in hand. My friend in New Orleans had an alarm.... they even called him. He was on the phone with them. They were on the phone with the police all the while, he ended up shooting the intruder dead, 3 shots by shotgun because the intruder kept advancing towards him meanwhile telling him crazy things like he had other people with him, upstairs and all. This isn't what if scenarios and veiled statistics.... it's real life Knox. This is a one of my brothers best friends who practices shooting at a range with us.

you talk all responsible and concerned, but you really don't have a grip on how the world works.... and just because you're the voice of criticism, doesn't make you right by default or by sympathy.

Let me tell you a story about how they tried to outlaw alcohol here.... it was called prohibition. Let me tell you how it turned out.... ah, nevermind

I've yet to see any argument against gun ownership in this thread that hasn't eluded to ignorant, narrow-minded, vague stereotyping of gun-owners.

.... not to mention any acknowledgment of the vast majority of gun purchases that are made strictly for the purposes of home self defense. You elude to "yeah, cars kill way more people but they're aren't designed to kill people".... brilliant! but you completely undermind and discredit the fact that almost every gun sold doesn't kill people either.... as they get responsibly tucked away in responsible, law abiding citizens homes for the sole purpose of self defense.

I get it, you don't like guns..... but your argument has morphed into so many directions to the point of stubborn bantering just for the purposes of not being underminded. Regardless of your disdain for guns, I'm sure in rebuttal to indifference of opinion you've been met with regarding the issue... you now are more engulfed in your rebuking of guns more than you ever would be or should be for the sake of validating your opinion. Apparently, you don't like being wrong more than you don't like guns.

[knox]

My perspective is from living in one of the most violent cities on earth, having had guns pointed at me in more than one occasion. I have a perception of THAT real world - the one you're not interested in. There is more to consider than white people paranoia.