[gualbert]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

ahh, but if the contest were to play the most raw shit, the Fall or the Ramones or Unsane would undoubtedly win right?

No. Because it can't be measured, gauged.
The volume can be measured ("everyone's deaf for life, you win" )

[Rob Instigator]

ahh, but how many people fill a venue and pay the cover CAN be measured!

[gualbert]

Yep.
So Madonna, Britney Spears, Tokio Hotel etc. are the best artists?
Is that it?

[Rob Instigator]

nope. but in terms of SUCCESS (meaning money in yr pocket here), they are winning currently.


I was referring to a given town, or scene. the band that draw the mopst will get the best gigs, yes, even if they SUCK. that's life.

[Glice]

To elaborate a bit on what Rob's saying - there are definite criteria for a band being 'good' or not, in much the same way that a fan of sport claims their team is 'the best'. These criteria are always contingent and rarely have any bearing on reality - for instance, England are a large margin away from being the best cricket team, but I swear they've got more spirit than the rest of them.

Where people get confused is that criteria doesn't mean empirical, or scientific criteria - you can no more put a band on a bit of litmus paper than you could fit an American Football side in a test-tube.

[Savage Clone]

I've gotten many, many high-profile or desirable gigs (of the kind I want, at least), and a TON of opening slots for bands I worship or enjoy without feeling like I "competed" for the slot against other bands.
Also, most of my bands have had a mid-level draw at best. A loyal, but by no means super-enormous audience.
Sometimes it's just about being a "musically compatible" choice for a particular bill.

Rob, you talk about being in a band like someone who works in a law office.

[artsygrrl]

I drink beer but I'd choose a Paris Hilton movie over sports any day.

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

I've gotten many, many high-profile or desirable gigs (of the kind I want, at least), and a TON of opening slots for bands I worship or enjoy without feeling like I "competed" for the slot against other bands.

there's no feeling of competition because yr band is better than most opening acts.

and by most, I mean, all of them.

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

Also, most of my bands have had a mid-level draw at best. A loyal, but by no means super-enormous audience.

do you WANT super-enormous?

I'll have my imp draw up the documents...

you don't mind signing in blood, do you?

it's much more...permanent.

[Savage Clone]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

do you WANT super-enormous?

Are you hitting on me?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

fuckers who steal and download everything their hard drive can stand can go fuck themselves. they are thieves flat out, outright. they deny this to fiurther their own self-delusion.

.

calm down, thats only the record company thieves talking, they have convinced you, but its ok, you will see the light soon my brother! The record company doesn't pay artists shit on individual album sales or loss of sales, they get advances and up front deals, and royalties are small change unless you are MJ or Nirvana or Bob Marley big, and even then, if you are that big there are that many more parasites.. from your local band at the bar to the $100 million gross a show Rolling Stones, the real money is in the gigs and the tours.

Only the record company makes money of record sales. Destroy the bogus capitalist record company scheme. DOWNLOAD=FREEDOM my friends..

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

Are you hitting on me?

no. I'm trying to offload some Extenza.

if I'm able to then say "I listened to them before they were super-enormous", so be it.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

calm down, thats only the record company thieves talking, they have convinced you, but its ok, you will see the light soon my brother! The record company doesn't pay artists shit on individual album sales or loss of sales, they get advances and up front deals, and royalties are small change unless you are MJ or Nirvana or Bob Marley big, and even then, if you are that big there are that many more parasites.. from your local band at the bar to the $100 million gross a show Rolling Stones, the real money is in the gigs and the tours.

Only the record company makes money of record sales. Destroy the bogus capitalist record company scheme. DOWNLOAD=FREEDOM my friends..

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but can you even conceive of the fact that some people might find statements like 'that's only the record company theieves talking, they have convinced you...' patronising? I mean, you're saying the counterpart of Rob's (equally patronising, and hereby paraphrased) 'all religions dupe people into giving them money when they should be getting stoned and failing to approach physics in the appropriate academic fashion'.

Having said all that, if I read this in my own voice there's no way it wouldn't sound patronising. But then, I am all your fathers. So suck it up yo.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

Rob, you talk about being in a band like someone who works in a law office.

Nope. I talk like someone who has very close friends trying to make a LIVING playing music, one as a composer/performer, one as a jazz drummer, one in a metal band out in LA, etc. I guess I speak more from a band manager standpoint than just a dude trying to make tunes with buddies. .
I was referring to the similarities between being on a sports team and being in a band.

[notyourfiend]

both playing sports and being in a band require teamwork, practice and skill.

enough said?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but can you even conceive of the fact that some people might find statements like 'that's only the record company theieves talking, they have convinced you...' patronising? I mean, you're saying the counterpart of Rob's (equally patronising, and hereby paraphrased) 'all religions dupe people into giving them money when they should be getting stoned and failing to approach physics in the appropriate academic fashion'.

Having said all that, if I read this in my own voice there's no way it wouldn't sound patronizing. But then, I am all your fathers. So suck it up yo.

I thought about that yes, but it remains true does it not? Is not all the that big money in album sales going to the record companies? How much money do people who sell thousands of copies an album make, even if they get high industry standards such as a dollar an album divided amongst like 4-5 bandmates, the promoters, the managers, the studio technical folks etc etc? The money is in tours, I am sorry if the truth comes across as condescending, but it remains the truth. I only used that tone cuz Rob was insinuating that people who do not buy albums are terrible, which is wrong.

further, what difference is downloading from tape trading or passing out CD-Rs? Am I stealing if I ask a friend to give me a copy of a really good album I hear at his house? Am I hurting the artist? Where do we draw the line?

[Rob Instigator]

i said people who download albums are STEALING.
people download albums from every label, small, indie, to large corpo. they do not make distinctions. they fuck over whoever. that is terrible to me.

most young bands do not make $$$ off their record sales but they finance a lot of what is pre-paid, lik I mentioned earlier, recording studios, marketing, promo items, cdpressing, LP pressing,. distribution, etc., with those record sales.

if they do not sell they get dropped. simple as that. people downloading their shit illegally does not help the bands at all.

[Glice]

The facts of an argument do not stop its tone being patronising. Obviously, this is the internet, we're all using rhetoric to a degree. I just find the force of desire to impart an argument seems to overtake the articulation of the argument itself.

tl; dr - learn2Schopenhaeur.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

i said people who download albums are STEALING.
people download albums from every label, small, indie, to large corpo. they do not make distinctions. they fuck over whoever. that is terrible to me.

and what about tape-trading? is that too much a slippery slope for you to take the same argument against? I believe that downloading for personal use is the same as tape-trading. It is those who SELL downloads and bootlegs that are fucking thieves, and it is those who BUY bootlegs and PAY for illegal downloads that are depriving artists of $$$. Free downloads for personal enjoyment is called promotion Rob.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

The facts of an argument do not stop its tone being patronising. Obviously, this is the internet, we're all using rhetoric to a degree. I just find the force of desire to impart an argument seems to overtake the articulation of the argument itself.

tl; dr - learn2Schopenhaeur.

did you not notice that I said I only used that tone to MATCH Rob's INSINUATION? i resent his accusations of en masse stealing of albums by downloading, that is bullshit! Stealing is to go and take something that was for sale. Hacking into iTunes to download is stealing, getting an MP3 copy of an album from a website or friend online is not stealing. Perhaps stream-capturing (which I am guilty of) or recording streams using and audio program is stealing, but not simply downloading a music file that you did not pay for. Rob's argument is a red herring, designed to make the supposed thieves SMELL SO BAD to the artists we don't actually investigate the details and degree of downloading and its definitions as stealing

[Rob Instigator]

stealing is taking that which does not belong to you, and has nothing to do with whether the item is for sale or not.