[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

elaborate please. what part were the lies?

after all, whether or not the Virgin Mary is a true story is practically irrelevant to the cultural/historical/personal significance she may take on as an ever-constant aspect and part of our complicated, multi-layered existences..

for example she used to be just a pack of lies and a frightening crock of shit for me too, but after time, like most women, grew on me quite subtly at first..

right, that's why i said she's a mythical figure. i mean, maybe there was or wasn't a jesus of nazareth who was a religious reformer among the jews--- and sure if he did exist he had to have a mother-- the fact that the dude got turned into a deity and his mother into another is not unusual. alexander the great also became a god, after all.

the pack of lies part for me is the form that the myth itself takes-- the whole notion of divine sexless pregnancy, which is to me a bronze-age invention cooked up to suppress and demonize female sexuality, debase the body and enshrine some vague "spirit" entity. female earth gods got replaced by male sky gods as war became an economic engine and women became chattel. yes, this wasn't the first virgin birth in religious history, but it's the most pervasive in our day. does this religious figure help give women in a "special" place? sure-- the same way the burkha does. to me, anyway, the cunt is holier than the hymen, and celibacy is an abomination.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I thought I'd ask what you folks thought about the Virgin Mary and what she means/signifies to y'all (since it is Virgin Mary Mother of God commemoration day)

To those of the Protestant tradition, she can be a nobody and border on a demonic goddess

To those of the Orthodox/Catholic tradition she is the mother of us all

to those atheists/agnostics perhaps she is nothing at all but a fairy tale..

I have always enjoyed the many perspectives expressed and explained and discussed in other religious/cultural threads in the past such as necklaces/crosses/amulets etc, or Protestant/Catholic/or Orthodox? and my Haile Selassie threads..

go.

 

Well i am of the Catholic Tradition, legally speaking my name is in the official Catholic register in the London Borough of Hounslow

The Virgin Mary has always been as meaningless as can be, her virginity says nothing about Jesus' words, and if she were a whore, would the teachings be rendered corrupot/dead?
Anyway, virginity is fine if it belongs to you, but when virginity belongs to EVERYONE, then i get uneasy

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

right, that's why i said she's a mythical figure. i mean, maybe there was or wasn't a jesus of nazareth who was a religious reformer among the jews--- and sure if he did exist he had to have a mother-- the fact that the dude got turned into a deity and his mother into another is not unusual. alexander the great also became a god, after all.

the pack of lies part for me is the form that the myth itself takes-- the whole notion of divine sexless pregnancy, which is to me a bronze-age invention cooked up to suppress and demonize female sexuality, debase the body and enshrine some vague "spirit" entity. female earth gods got replaced by male sky gods as war became an economic engine and women became chattel. yes, this wasn't the first virgin birth in religious history, but it's the most pervasive in our day. does this religious figure help give women in a "special" place? sure-- the same way the burkha does. to me, anyway, the cunt is holier than the hymen, and celibacy is an abomination.

true true..

but you must admit there must be some cultural potency to the imagery and symbolism of Christianity and Judaism for their shit to dominate the world and survive when others, equally carried around the world through conquest, cooled and declined. All the great religions were carried around the world by the edge of the sword, and yet Christianity, Judaism and their sister in symbolism and origin Islam have stuck around long after all the colonial slave masters left.

Regardless of the truth of the stories and songs, so many different peoples of the world have adapted them as their own. How else could the stories, legends and hymns (as Joseph Campbell describes them) an obscure, demonic cult of Arabia come to be so well loved and personalized the world over across thousands of years? How else could a secret religion of the poor who sang and prayed in tombs and catechums become worldwide?

As ART, these religions are truly remarkable. Folks across time and place have embraced the symbolism, the philosophies, the mannerisms, the morals, the laws, the imagery, the song/music/hymn/liturgy, the architecture etc etc of Christianity and Judaism (and Islam) and made it their own.

I like to discuss this particularly with folks who do not believe, because we can critique the religion as ART rather than religion.

You all must admit, whether the stories themselves are true or not, the writers were powerfully creative and deeply intuitive to the human experience, and their creations have been of the most powerful literature, story and song the world has ever seen, and the world has seen the rise and fall of many many beautiful artists..

I mean, whether or not Tupac was actually a hardcore gangster and thug was irrelevent to the way his music was so well embraced across every corner of the world. Whether or not Bob Marley was a good or righteous man or believed what he sang, his songs have been embraced world wide. Whether or not Michael Jackson was a cool RB singer or a deranged child molester, his music still was the most popular ever.

See, the Bible and Tradition and Songs like the Virgin Mary are powerful cultural and artistic symbols which the world embraces and makes their own for a million and one reasons all deeply and intimately personal and individualized.

I am always awestruck simply at that fact alone, that the imagery and art of the Bible and Traditions are so widespread, and not because people are forced into it, that is a rather naive and even demeaning explanation..

That's like saying you like the Beatles because the record companies bombarded you with their music and the media and the pop culture vibe coerced you.. nonsense and we all know it

[ann ashtray]

"cultural potency" = hand me downs. Tradition, etc.

Perhaps I show show my non-existant six year old my wee-wee he'll swear for the rest of his life his dad had the biggest one in the world...shit will get carried on for generations.

[!@#$%!]

man this is so long i'll try to reply quickly

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

true true..

but you must admit there must be some cultural potency to the imagery and symbolism of Christianity and Judaism for their shit to dominate the world and survive when others, equally carried around the world through conquest, cooled and declined. All the great religions were carried around the world by the edge of the sword, and yet Christianity, Judaism and their sister in symbolism and origin Islam have stuck around long after all the colonial slave masters left.

football has greater cultural potency than any of those relijuns. the beatles were bigger than jesus. paganism wins.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Regardless of the truth of the stories and songs, so many different peoples of the world have adapted them as their own. How else could the stories, legends and hymns (as Joseph Campbell describes them) an obscure, demonic cult of Arabia come to be so well loved and personalized the world over across thousands of years? How else could a secret religion of the poor who sang and prayed in tombs and catechums become worldwide?

it appealed to the slaves, who were the majority. it's marketing genius consisted in that it celebrated the meek, the oppressed, the poor-- in other words, most of the population during the barbaric stages of history (which more or less continue until today)

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

As ART, these religions are truly remarkable. Folks across time and place have embraced the symbolism, the philosophies, the mannerisms, the morals, the laws, the imagery, the song/music/hymn/liturgy, the architecture etc etc of Christianity and Judaism (and Islam) and made it their own.

i prefer the greeks, but to each their own

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I like to discuss this particularly with folks who do not believe, because we can critique the religion as ART rather than religion.

i grew up surrounded by baroque churches, and i always found christian imagery repellent, even when i believed-- naked crucifixions, statues with stupid faces, etc. sure, there was a profusion of religious art during the renaissance mostly because the megachurch footed the bill, but the good art came from the rediscovery of greece and rome.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

You all must admit, whether the stories themselves are true or not, the writers were powerfully creative and deeply intuitive to the human experience, and their creations have been of the most powerful literature, story and song the world has ever seen, and the world has seen the rise and fall of many many beautiful artists..

i can't make logical sense of this. the "must" part always irks me though, i'm terrible at taking orders.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I mean, whether or not Tupac was actually a hardcore gangster and thug was irrelevent to the way his music was so well embraced across every corner of the world. Whether or not Bob Marley was a good or righteous man or believed what he sang, his songs have been embraced world wide. Whether or not Michael Jackson was a cool RB singer or a deranged child molester, his music still was the most popular ever.

ok you left me behind here-- i can't catch up with your thinking. are we talking about historical truths or about how good or bad myths are regardless of their popularity? because i haven't agreed with you that popularity automatically translates into quality. it's like saying macdonalds must be awesome food because there's one everywhere.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

See, the Bible and Tradition and Songs like the Virgin Mary are powerful cultural and artistic symbols which the world embraces and makes their own for a million and one reasons all deeply and intimately personal and individualized.

like pokemon, or dungeons & dragons, or (better yet) greek mythology.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I am always awestruck simply at that fact alone, that the imagery and art of the Bible and Traditions are so widespread, and not because people are forced into it, that is a rather naive and even demeaning explanation..

bullshit, christianity was spread by military and economic power-- ask any indian of the americas.

here a little entertainment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

That's like saying you like the Beatles because the record companies bombarded you with their music and the media and the pop culture vibe coerced you.. nonsense and we all know it

the media did bombard me with shitty pop and i liked it until i was 12. my mom liked the beatles and i liked them ok for a while.

[Glice]

I wish I could find the list of the other Biblical characters who were born by virgin birth. It's not unique, even in the Bible. No further comment though.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Glice

I wish I could find the list of the other Biblical characters who were born by virgin birth. It's not unique, even in the Bible. No further comment though.

it's much older than christianity, if i had here my copy of the golden bough i'd copypaste the lot.

by the way, if i recall well, the mother of jesús wasn't deemed a "virgin" until the nicene council in the IV century.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

A whore who clearly got caught in a lie. "oh hunny, I never had sex with anyone and am saving myself for you...it...it must be a baby from above...the lord sent it to me"

[DeadDiscoDildo]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

the media did bombard me with shitty pop and i liked it until i was 12. my mom liked the beatles and i liked them ok for a while.

Whoa whoa whoa...the beatles did not produce shitty pop.

Watch it.

[ann ashtray]

The
beatles
sucked.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

The
Stooges
Sucked.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

But neither of them were worse than Charles Mansons shit.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

it's much older than christianity, if i had here my copy of the golden bough i'd copypaste the lot.

by the way, if i recall well, the mother of jesús wasn't deemed a "virgin" until the nicene council in the IV century.

Zoroaster, Guatama (I think) Zeus...

Some historical-linguistic scholars get quite excited about the Septuagint translating the Hebrew 'young woman' into 'virgin', so it wouldn't surprise me that wasn't due to the Nicene council; I know the Marian cult is a relatively late addition to Christianity, but obviously your Luthers and Zwinglis sorted that lot out.

[krischanski]

She is the funny reason why some boys have girl names: Carl Maria von Weber, Erich Maria Remarque, Klaus Maria Brandauer, Rainer Maria Rilke etc.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by DeadDiscoDildo

But neither of them were worse than Charles Mansons shit.

Well, ya know what they say about opinions.

[SONIC GAIL]

congratulations you have one

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

what's the point of a debate between an atheist and a theist?

[chicka]

I can't believe this thread still has life. Anyone who actually believes she was a MARRIED virgin must also believe that Living with the Kardashians isn't scripted.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Glice

Zoroaster, Guatama (I think) Zeus...

Some historical-linguistic scholars get quite excited about the Septuagint translating the Hebrew 'young woman' into 'virgin', so it wouldn't surprise me that wasn't due to the Nicene council; I know the Marian cult is a relatively late addition to Christianity, but obviously your Luthers and Zwinglis sorted that lot out.

yeah the buddha legend is a very late addition, zeus was son of rhea but athena was born from his head alone, plus a very handy hammer. when hera tried to give birth to something by herself she begat a monster called typhon that was locked up in the bottom of the ocean-- goes to show you men are better at this shit (ha ha ha).

i did a search of the golden bough online and it mentions that one of the myths of isis says not that she fucked the corpse of osiris but that she gave birth to horus all on her own. the cult of isis was popular in rome by the way so it's possible that some of her properties got transferred to mary (this is my own speculation).

anyway there are various myths like that but all date back to the bronze age, before that it's all big women with lots of tits that get the worship (hurray).

i wish someone would start a cult of monica bellucci, i'd so convert to that.

 

i was a member of the Church of Zeta in the 90s but then she up and married that turkey neck who probably covered her all in geezer dreck.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

what's the point of a debate between an atheist and a theist?

amusement? since agreement is impossible, you can argue for fun