[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the meaning of "church" is a congregation of fellow believers in that instance. those are scant few words to try and rationalize the hierarchical, bureaucratic institution of a dogmatic belief system. That is my whole point. The person named Jesus was actively fighting against organized religion, seeking to destroy the old rabbinical authority. The roman catholic church (created by political leaders like Constantine just as much as it was created by the descendants of the apostles) has turned Jesus' teachings on their head, and continuously maintained the ignorance of their followers, going so far as to disallow the personal reading of a bible in one's own language for centuries (it still takes place in africa and south america where services are held in latin, and the faithful are told this is how jesus wanted it, even though jesus spoke no latin!)

That is not historically true. You are actually trying to rationalize your own misconception, but the evidence of history disagrees with you. The Church authored, codified, and canonized the Gospel narratives and the New Testament Epistles. How can you argue with the Church about its own book exactly? That seems like arguing with an author about the implied meaning! Silly if you ask me, especially since you don't even have a dog in this fight..

Besides of which, people have had the Bible in their language for centuries now, what has it done for people? Nothing. The Bible by itself is an empty book without meaning. The Bible can only find meaning through the heart and experience of the Church from where it comes. Aside from that, the Bible is just a musty book of epic fiction.

[Rob Instigator]

the beurocracy did those things suchfriends, not the "church" of followers. Read up on the Council of Nineveh and the Council of Nicea. Those shits were run by the power elite, not by the faithful

Half the "bible" existed before the catholic church was created, (remember the hebrews?)
It has been edited, to create the illusion that Emmanuel, Jesus the Christ was the direct descendant of King David. It has been edited to bolster the bureaucracies claims as to the one true church. It has been edited to include so many things that the Jesus did not ask for, nor mention. Such is life. The modern church owes more to the greed for power of Constantine than to the devout believers the church seeks to control.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the beurocracy did those things suchfriends, not the "church" of followers. Read up on the Council of Nineveh and the Council of Nicea. Those shits were run by the power elite, not by the faithful

Half the "bible" existed before the catholic church was created, (remember the hebrews?)
It has been edited, to create the illusion that Emmanuel, Jesus the Christ was the direct descendant of King David. It has been edited to bolster the bureaucracies claims as to the one true church. It has been edited to include so many things that the Jesus did not ask for, nor mention. Such is life. The modern church owes more to the greed for power of Constantine than to the devout believers the church seeks to control.

 

[!@#$%!]

rob, what you're saying has been argued at least since the reformation, but the problem is not "what jesus said" but rather, idealism vs. human nature.

no matter the utopian ideology (marxism, christianity, whatever), power structures will always develop because the human brain is hardwired to look for leaders in hierarchical structures. tribes, supertribes, etc.

part of the problem is the contradiction created by branding such power and hierarchy as "evil", especially because many of these ideologies cater to the oppressed who see power that way. hence, they all exist in permanent discomfort and eventually auto-negate.

and yes, some mutants aren't wired that way, but most people are, including the "revolutionaries" who pretend to hate power but are just sore that they aren't the ones on top, fucking everybody else. every time one of those fuckers wins "for the people" they become dictators for life.

[Rob Instigator]

 

[Rob Instigator]

I am really not out to argue or change anyone's mind. I was just describing why it is so hard to deal with churches, any churches, when your goals are to help and theirs are to "save your soul."

[Rob Instigator]

Ate 12 years old I could not get a satisfactory answer from anyone, not my dad who had a master's degree in Political Science and a Doctorate in Divinity, to my teachers, to other priests I got to talk to, as to why, when one group of oppressed religious believers are persecuted and tortured for their beliefs, that self-same group, if it survives and prospers, proceeds to find another religion and it's followers to persecute and torture. It made no sense when I was 12 and it does not now at age 39. I lay all the blame for this, not on the individual followers of a religion, but on the hierarchy and bureaucracy of the religions themselves, which is exactly what Jesus preached against.

Priests would tell me stupid platitudes like "human are fallible, son. They make mistakes. " and "that is not god's fault." etc etc and still expect me to accept that everything is created by god, through god, and of his desire, as if that explained what happens. All that tells me is that it is all bullshit, through and through. It has always been bullshit, and will always be bullshit. Mutually contradictory bullshit.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Priests would tell me stupid platitudes like "human are fallible, son. They make mistakes. " and "that is not god's fault." etc etc and still expect me to accept that everything is created by god, through god, and of his desire, as if that explained what happens. All that tells me is that it is all bullshit, through and through. It has always been bullshit, and will always be bullshit. Mutually contradictory bullshit.

Rob, those are not empty platitudes. You are asking existential questions much deeper than the legitimacy or hypocrisy of the institutional Church. Don't you fail, fall short, or make mistakes in your life? Are you just bullshit because of your mistakes? We ALL have natural contradictions, that is what makes is human, and the Church is a human institution as any other. Further, if God is truly the Almighty, isn't it His prerogative that if HE wants the Universe to be fucked up and flawed, isn't that His right? What if God likes distortion, noise, and off-cadence vocals? Why exactly does life or the world have to so perfect?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Ate 12 years old I could not get a satisfactory answer from anyone, not my dad who had a master's degree in Political Science and a Doctorate in Divinity, to my teachers, to other priests I got to talk to, as to why, when one group of oppressed religious believers are persecuted and tortured for their beliefs, that self-same group, if it survives and prospers, proceeds to find another religion and it's followers to persecute and torture. It made no sense when I was 12 and it does not now at age 39. I lay all the blame for this, not on the individual followers of a religion, but on the hierarchy and bureaucracy of the religions themselves, which is exactly what Jesus preached against.

Priests would tell me stupid platitudes like "human are fallible, son. They make mistakes. " and "that is not god's fault." etc etc and still expect me to accept that everything is created by god, through god, and of his desire, as if that explained what happens. All that tells me is that it is all bullshit, through and through. It has always been bullshit, and will always be bullshit. Mutually contradictory bullshit.

well, you might have seen this shit a million times already, but i keep laughing every damn time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo

after that, what can one say?

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Rob, those are not empty platitudes. You are asking existential questions much deeper than the legitimacy or hypocrisy of the institutional Church. Don't you fail, fall short, or make mistakes in your life? Are you just bullshit because of your mistakes? We ALL have natural contradictions, that is what makes is human, and the Church is a human institution as any other. Further, if God is truly the Almighty, isn't it His prerogative that if HE wants the Universe to be fucked up and flawed, isn't that His right? What if God likes distortion, noise, and off-cadence vocals? Why exactly does life or the world have to so perfect?

imperfection is not the same thing as hypocritical.

[Rob Instigator]

the question of why religiously persecuted people immediately turn and find a weaker religion to persecute, the moment they gain any power, is not a metaphysical question. It is a political and sociological question.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

A quote from the forward in Elie Wiesel's Night, an epic tale about losing Faith in the face of soul-crushing persecution.

"Maybe I should have told that young man this. That if the Almighty is truly the Almighty, than for each of us, the final word is His alone."

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the question of why religiously persecuted people immediately turn and find a weaker religion to persecute, the moment they gain any power, is not a metaphysical question. It is a political and sociological question.

what i'd like to know is why christians have no respect for their enemies and feel the need to paint them as "evil" before attempting to destroy them.

fucking mental illness.

[Rob Instigator]

it is not just christians, it is all religions. the first thing you do is make the enemy become evil, denigrate their religion, insult their power, etc. There are so many Russian Orthodox devout in Russia yet for decades the USA party line was to call them all godless heathens.


Job should have told Jehovah to go fuck himself.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

it is not just christians, it is all religions. the first thing you do is make the enemy become evil, denigrate their religion, insult their power, etc. There are so many Russian Orthodox devout in Russia yet for decades the USA party line was to call them all godless heathens.


Job should have told Jehovah to go fuck himself.

nah, it's the judeochristian axis (judaism/christianity/islam) that is obsessed with "evil"

in the baghavad gita, arjuna struggles with having to go to war and killing his cousins.

krishna doesn't tell him "kill them cuz they're evil", he says "kill them because it's your job to do it."

later he adds some bullshit about how one can't kill the immortal soul anyway. but he never calls the other party "evil." they are simply adversaries.

christianity is the biggest spread of "evil" in the fucking universe. everything is "evil" in the eyes of those fuckers! *sick*

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Sighs.


CANT Y'ALL SEE HOW YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE VERY SAME HYPOCRISY AND PREJUDICE WHICH YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY AGAINST?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Sighs.


CANT Y'ALL SEE HOW YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE VERY SAME HYPOCRISY AND PREJUDICE WHICH YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY AGAINST?

it's an evil weevil! eeeeeeeeeeevil!!!!

[!@#$%!]

power is evil, money is evil, work is evil, corporations are evil, the government is evil, taxes are evil, guns are evil, our appetites are evil, the mind is evil, the other political ideology is evil, the other religion is evil, science is evil (evil scientists!), evil spirits, evil animals, evil pagans, evil practices, evil lies-- evil is in every fucking corner of the abrahamic worldview. eeeeeeevil!!!

i need a fucking nap to get over all that infinitely tiresome evil-counting...

but watch out! don't sleep! evil lurks...

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Sighs.


CANT Y'ALL SEE HOW YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE VERY SAME HYPOCRISY AND PREJUDICE WHICH YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY AGAINST?

it is only hypocrisy if I claim one thing and act differently. Hating the fact that religion keeps humanity apart is not hypocrisy.

It is only prejudice if I judge without evidence (PRE-judice) I have a lifetime of evidence to support how I feel, and the entire written history of humanity to back it up.

[dale_gribble]

in my opinion modern christianity is the way it is because of paul(saul) and other cunts in the early church who defiled jesus' original teachings to keep their mystery religion alive with a new name. i side with "whack jobs" that believe jesus' actual teachings were very buddhist in nature and were solely about being a better person. the aforementioned cunts used jesus' teachings to make their mystery religion seem fresh/progressive while still maintaining their queer rituals and belief that the resurrection of jesus should be the central doctrine of christianity instead of love. irrelevant really, the point is FUCK religion/cults...just don't be dick. why is it so hard to not be a dick without bullshit rituals and dogma?