[Severian]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

^^^there is no getting rid of violence. there is no getting rid of guns.

evil people will continue to do evil things.

owning a gun doesn’t guarantee protection, the same as wearing a seatbelt doesn’t guarantee survival of a car crash......here in Texas, we choose to buckle up!

I’m sorry, “evil?”

Are you joking? Being ironic? Or do you really see the world like this. Good and evil, and “we choose to buckle up?”

Also faulty analogy, guns and seatbelts. You have to be joking right now.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

dude, that is so wrong. Austin is a fucking shithole of redneck racism and extreme segregation. EXTREME. Just like LA, the product pushed out (music in asstown, and movies in LA) makes people think that the cities themselves are liberal and progressive when they are most certainly NOT.

Austin is a fucking SHIT HOLE.

Huh. I guess I believe you. I’ve only driven through the state, so I don’t know shit.

Well, fuck it all then.

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by Severian

I’m sorry, “evil?”

Are you joking? Being ironic? Or do you really see the world like this. Good and evil, and “we choose to buckle up?”

Also faulty analogy, guns and seatbelts. You have to be joking right now.

I’m as 100% honest as I know how to be......evil is a very real thing!

Someone who chooses to dress in black tactical gear, enters a small country church on a easy Sunday morning and kills kids as young as five, they are evil.

YES - someone choosing to bring harm or death to an individual or group is evil......it’s an evil act!!!

“I mean it was just strictly acting on what the right thing to do was,” Langendorff said.” ......this is such a Texas way of thinking, a way of life!

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by Severian

Being ironic?

How?







......and more importantly, why?

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

How?



......and more importantly, why?

Because this is a religion thread and most folks here are openly against it, and I thought you might be being cute with the binary morality statements, which bear a striking resemblance to the black and white of religio-speak.

I agree that things like what happened in Texas are hard to describe as anything other than “evil.” Seriously. Vegas too. So many other things. But I don’t think one can make the argument that strapping up to fight said “evil” with the instruments used to commit said acts is, like, *good.* Huge moral leap there. Huge logical leap top. There’s no binary logic to apply to this. Arming people to fight the armed people is not any kind of solution to any kind of problem.

And there are multiple problems here. One is that “bad” people with bad intentions are hurting other people. Another is that those people have access to weapons to help them. Another problem is that said weapons exist, and we as a society very obviously do not yet m kw how to handle them. So I just take strong issue with the “we need more armed citizens” response.

That is literally the last thing anyone needs, and perhaps the most counter-intuitive solution to the problem that I can even imagine.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

But I don’t think one can make the argument that strapping up to fight said “evil” with the instruments used to commit said acts is, like, *good.* Huge moral leap there. Huge logical leap top. There’s no binary logic to apply to this. Arming people to fight the armed people is not any kind of solution to any kind of problem.

and yet that myth is at the center of american ideology— especially on the right

 

this was the favorite tv program of leo strauss, intellectual godfather to the neocons who led both reagan’s and dubya’s foreign policies.

have you ever watched “the power of nightmares”? great documentary. a bit propaganda-style, sure, but... so eye-opening.

 

ronnie raygun vs the evil empire
dubya vs the axis of evil knievel

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

and yet that myth is at the center of american ideology— especially on the right

 

this was the favorite tv program of leo strauss, intellectual godfather to the neocons who led both reagan’s and dubya’s foreign policies.

have you ever watched “the power of nightmares”? great documentary. a bit propaganda-style, sure, but... so eye-opening.

 

ronnie raygun vs the evil empire
dubya vs the axis of evil knievel

No, never seen the nightmare thing, but I’ll seek it out.
But I know, absolutely, that this is how the “right” (ugh.) thinks.

Which is why it surprises me to hear this logic (non-logic) coming from Bytor. Apparently without irony.

This is how religion is damaging.
This is how it’s dangerous. This kind of thinking being applied to complex sociological and political problems, or, fuck’s sake, women’s health issues, is truly damaging.

I’m prepared to say that it takes an under-developed mind to subscribe to these beliefs in an absolutist way.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

I’m prepared to say

and how did you prepare yourself? had a drink, felt angry, and spewed a narcissistic put-down? impressive...

ps- didnt know you were a zoroastrian scholar

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by Severian

Which is why it surprises me to hear this logic (non-logic) coming from Bytor. Apparently without irony.

So I represent non-logic?

I thought this would be a thread of discussion, not everyone agreeing, but some solid back and forth.

Originally Posted by Severian

But I don’t think one can make the argument that strapping up to fight said “evil” with the instruments used to commit said acts is, like, *good.* Huge moral leap there.

There is no argument, not here in Texas......it’s a way of life! I’m not talking about people walking around “strapped” playing Wild Wild West. It’s a reality that a great many Texans own guns, especially women. We’ve always had the right to carry a consealed weapon in your vehicle when traveling from point A to point B. No license required to own a gun, none of my guns are registered and I’m 100% legal. Guess I should point out that I haven’t purchased a gun in over 30 years.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i live in a ranch and have guns and everyone has them around here— there are no cops

Symbols understands......rural areas of Texas are vast and many. Most don’t have local Sheriffs Departments, just a Constable who is responsible for hundreds of miles. But honestly, that doesn’t matter as those in the City have the same rights.

Last week in New York someone ran over innocent people while shouting, allahu akbar. No one crying about new restrictions on who can rent vans, and please be sure you understand in NO WAY does this Muslim represent all Muslims.

But when a lone Wolfe shoots up a church, let’s change the Constitution and lump law abiding citizens into some sort of republican hate group, brand them as being non-logic.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

So I represent non-logic?

I thought this would be a thread of discussion, not everyone agreeing, but some solid back and forth.

this is exactly why i got pissed at severian’s post.

and this is why liberals fail— because rather than trying to understand and/or persuade their opponents they call them stupid.

“if you were smart, you’d agree with me”

well, if you’re so smart, why can’t you listen to your opponents, and understand them, and come up with a compelling argument that speaks to them?

preaching to the choir is no great feat.

and agreement is not a compliment.

[Severian]

Yeah, ok, I got angry and said stupid shit. I do apologize because nobody will ever understand anyone if the only things that are said or intimated are “you don’t get it.” Yes liberals fail at this constantly.

Smarter people should be able to listen to opinions even when they don’t like them and relate to the people they speak to. Obviously I can’t do that, so clearly not very smart.

Apologies for being a dick Bytor.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

So I represent non-logic?

I thought this would be a thread of discussion, not everyone agreeing, but some solid back and forth.



There is no argument, not here in Texas......it’s a way of life! I’m not talking about people walking around “strapped” playing Wild Wild West. It’s a reality that a great many Texans own guns, especially women. We’ve always had the right to carry a consealed weapon in your vehicle when traveling from point A to point B. No license required to own a gun, none of my guns are registered and I’m 100% legal. Guess I should point out that I haven’t purchased a gun in over 30 years.



Symbols understands......rural areas of Texas are vast and many. Most don’t have local Sheriffs Departments, just a Constable who is responsible for hundreds of miles. But honestly, that doesn’t matter as those in the City have the same rights.

Last week in New York someone ran over innocent people while shouting, allahu akbar. No one crying about new restrictions on who can rent vans, and please be sure you understand in NO WAY does this Muslim represent all Muslims.

But when a lone Wolfe shoots up a church, let’s change the Constitution and lump law abiding citizens into some sort of republican hate group, brand them as being non-logic.

Just to be clear though, I am not in favor of changing the constitution. I am not in favor of taking away gun rights. I’m on the ball enough to understand that’s no kind of answer either, and I don’t believe I’ve ever made any mention of that being a solution to any problem.

I just support stricter checks, tests perhaps, and so on. More oversight about who can get a gun. NOT eliminating the second amendment, or anything close to that. I’m not a crazy knee-jerk liberal. As I said, I may personally hate guns, but I am politically *not anti-gun* Hope that makes sense.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

Yeah, ok, I got angry and said stupid shit. I do apologize because nobody will ever understand anyone if the only things that are said or intimated are “you don’t get it.” Yes liberals fail at this constantly.

Smarter people should be able to listen to opinions even when they don’t like them and relate to the people they speak to. Obviously I can’t do that, so clearly not very smart.

Apologies for being a dick Bytor.

internet hi fives, amigo

now let’s try to resume the talk about ideas

the idea of a cosmic struggle between good and evil is both ancient and thoroughly developed

it’s in many religions, it’s in superhero comics (yes), it’s in laws and judicial systems, etc.

when we talk about guns in america we’re really discussing metaphysics, value systems, etc

eta: i heard this the other day on ennpeearr: https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_h...the_moral_mind

eta, again: sorry that was the wrong dude. this is the right one:

https://www.ted.com/talks/robb_wille...onversat ions

it’s in the oct 27 “ted radio hour” show: https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510298/ted-radio-hour

[tw2113]

I mostly get annoyed by anyone who claims morals only come from a book labeled "the bible"

[Rob Instigator]

"Evil" and "Good" are a dichotomy, and didactic thought tends to lead to Aristotlean emphasis on yes/no, omitting the all-important other options of "Maybe" and "I Don't Know."

I think evil exists, because people exist and we all have that capability.

I think good exists, because people exist and we all have that capability.

I think animals/plants/fungi/algae/bacteria/viruses do not give a flying fuck about good/evil. the world gets along fine without humans and without our ideas of what is good or what is evil.

an animal/plant/fungus/algae/bacteria/virus will kill or wait for death to feed and survive. that is not evil, right? It is the nature of things that life feeds on life.

an animal (dolphins/orcas/cats/dogs/monkees/chimps) will also torture or kill another animal just for fun/entertainment/boredom. Is that evil? How can it be evil if the animal in question is unaware of it's own consciousness, much less the other animals' consciousness?

Humans have forethought, at least a capacity for it that is greater than any other creature we have found. We know what our actions will entail, how they will help or hurt someone. we choose to do good. we choose to do evil. There is not a human alive that has not wished death up[on an enemy or a foe or a hated person. The difference between a "good" human and a "bad" human seems to be that a good human understands the thought is just a thought, and to act upon it is selfish and bad. The "bad" humans will entertain such thoughts and go ahead and plan them and carry them out.

There is very little difference between these two humans. the ony difference is their CHOICE to act.

abusers, molesters, rapists, killers, etc, for the most part, choose to do what they do. That choice, that moment when they decide to actually act upon those desires, is what shows true EVIL.

[Severian]

I didn’t used to believe in evil. Not really. Too programmed by a science-heavy education. Even as a young Catholic-Ish teen, I had reservations about good and evil.

Now I’m pretty sure I believe in evil. I don’t think human beings are simple enough organisms to be reduced to one thing or another, but actions certainly can be, I think. Rape, evil. Genocide, evil. Hatred based on superficial things like appearance or sexual preference, evil. A wish to inflict harm on others, often probably evil... sometimes simply compulsive. Sometimes a bit of both. My take anyway. And my take is in constant flux.

I’m a little foggier on what’s good. Again I blame the science.

I think any kind of absolutist value system is counterproductive to society. Extremism is counterproductive to society.

I’m an extremely analytical thinker, so I’m almost COMPLETELY INCAPABLE of coming to actual conclusions about things. Always trying to look at other sides of issues I think I understand, which I find and then un-understand in the process.

Just typing now.

[The Soup Nazi]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

one would date his own daughter. the other impregnated his own daughter behind her husband’s back. the latter’s deed is the former’s wet dream.

We all know Drumpf said he'd date Ivanka if she weren't his daughter — now, has anyone here seen THIS shit from 2003?

WW: Ivanka, what's the favorite thing you have in common with your father?

IT: Either real estate or golf.

WW: Donald?

DT: Well, I was gonna say SEX...

[ilduclo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfa56tjBQo

[d.sound]

this is too fuckin funny. dennis' faith speech from always sunny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoM2657e7bI

[ilduclo]

Evo Morales and Bolivia. New law for anti-proselytizing and allowing abortion

http://www.joemygod.com/2018/01/18/b...proselytizing/