[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

...
a somewhat example, its for other thread also. didnt like Rothko, but when i saw paintings of his, they made feel things. was almost overwhelmed actually. i always consider good art (for my personal book), what makes my soul -and aesthetics-move. wont mean that other pieces of art arent good. and still, the debate of what is art, dont think its entirely pointless.

I've written as much about Rothko. A few times actually. One cannot properly enjoy a Rothko as a reproduction in a book. You must meditate with the paintings in their environment. And yes, you do "feel things." And what you feel goes beyond an eye-brain reaction to certain color fields and compositional proportions. What you feel is a genuine spiritual presence.

Going back to the topic, one way to look at the whole writing thing is as follows. The Surrealists and the Abstract Expressionists who came after employed much automatic writing. Simply stated, the major problem many artists, critics and instructors have with "writing on canvas" is precisely that it is literal writing and thus sets up a narrative context for the work going beyond just the work's title.

[Florya]

Nefeli:- Maybe I need to modify my statement to read 'Art does not always need an audience'

Atari:- As for Rothko, whilst I don't doubt that the feelings you and Nefeli have when confronted with his work 'in the flesh' are genuine, personally they do absolutely nothing for me.
But as I said in a previous post, my opinion is just that, my opinion. It is irrelevant when it comes to deciding what is 'good' art and what is not.

This is why tossers like Sewell and his ilk piss me off. They seem to think that their opinion is more valid than yours or mine, but offer no valid reason why it should be.

[Toilet & Bowels]

on the other hand we should not discount the fact that some people have a natural flair for reading into and interpreting a work of art, and if they combine this with extensive learning of art history it is often interesting to hear their insights into a piece of work.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Florya

Nefeli:- Maybe I need to modify my statement to read 'Art does not always need an audience'

i think if it doesn't need an audience then it's not art.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by swa(y)

the only real think i ever learned from the art classes i have taken is that art can not, and should not, be taught in a structured environment. some asshole teacher telling me "you need to change this, put something in the background, too much negative space" < what fucking right does he have to tell me how to express myself? NONE.

Part of the problem with a lot of contemporary art is that art is now seen solely as a form of self expression. This is a relatively recent turn and forgets a great tradition of art as observation. The tragedy of the self-expression route is that it's caused artists to concentrate on feeling, rather than looking.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Part of the problem with a lot of contemporary art today is that art is now seen solely as a form of self expression. This is a relatively recent turn and forgets a great tradition of art as observation. The tragedy of the self-expression route is that it's caused artists to concentrate on feeling, rather than looking.

for real, art isn't therapy. although some how it has come to be seen as that. i blame edvard munch and jackson pollock.

[demonrail666]

That's why I find artists like Tracey Emin so dull. They merely reflect a public fascination with the artist as some kind of outsider, which ultimately feeds back into art schools and students that treat their work as a form of confession. That most of these students have very little of interest worth confessing anyway, doesn't help matters.

[Toilet & Bowels]

on the subject of making work about one's self, my tutor at st. martin's tried to get this black guy in our tutor group to stop making the work he was making, and start makingwork about being black! in this day and age, can you believe it?! he didn't take her advice.

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

i think if it doesn't need an audience then it's not art.

Edit: I strongly believe that the artist should never be concerned or even think about the publics opinion when it's finally presented to them at a gallery.
If they create art with that in mind, it isn't art.

It's not so much the that they merely reflect the public's fascination with the artist as some kind of outsider, that is the natural reaction of a public that is constantly subjected to the egoistic manifestations of said 'artist' on a regular basis.

Edit - Demonrail

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

I strongly believe that the artist should never be concerned or even think about the publics opinion when it's presented to them at a gallery.
If they create art from that point of view, it's not art.

yeah, but artist's need to ask themselves if the work they are showing is worth being shown to the public, and if they are showing to public for selfish reasons (not including getting paid)

[demonrail666]

[sarram]True, but she seems to have captured the public's imagination - nonetheless.

The fact that more people know about Van Gogh's ear than have seen his work, about Beethoven's deafness than have heard his symphonies, etc., etc., speaks volumes about a society that equates talent with emotional or physical turmoil.

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

yeah, but artist's need to ask themselves if the work they are showing is worth being shown to the public, and if they are showing to public for selfish reasons (not including getting paid)

I don't get what you mean by worth? As in quality?
If so, then the question we should ask ourselves is: What is a good example of quality art?

Originally Posted by demonrail666

[sarram]True, but she seems to have captured the public's imagination - nonetheless.

The fact that more people know about Van Gogh's ear than have seen his work, about Beethoven's deafness than have heard his symphonies, etc., etc., speaks volumes about a society that equates talent with emotional or physical turmoil.

That is a technical thing, though. Let's not forget that she is a regular on many a gossip column that have little to do with art, and are mainly read by people who care little about it. ES magazine, which is given away with the Evening Standard every Friday, has very often pictures of La Emin partying like it's still 1999 on it. That's how a lot of people get to know who she is, even not knowing, perhaps, what her arty garbage looks like.

[atari 2600]

Well, Florya, you didn't meditate with
the paintings. "Meditate" was the operative word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swa(y)
the only real think i ever learned from the art classes i have taken is that art can not, and should not, be taught in a structured environment. some asshole teacher telling me "you need to change this, put something in the background, too much negative space" < what fucking right does he have to tell me how to express myself? NONE.


It's funny to me how swa(y) (and others like him) love to reference a
"judge not lest ye be judged"
Christian sentiment whenever they
feel it suits their agenda. It's funny because they usually write from a point of view that's diametrically the opposite. The teacher was merely trying to teach, swa(y). That's why there was a class and that's presumably why you attended it. Chances are, there were some things to learn from that teacher and some things to react against. So calm the fuck down, you impious fuck.

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

I think it all boils down to aesthetics.

Yes, of course, and as a person of reasonable intelligence like yourself, that's what I also wrote that ridiculous time that swa(y) claimed I lost an argument. Some are just interjecting their baggage into the whole thing a little more than others.

a case in point: (baggage)

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

for real, art isn't therapy. although some how it has come to be seen as that. i blame edvard munch and jackson pollock.

So you see the artist as more of a craftsperson than a shaman? I'm not sure I follow. The Abstract Expressionists responded to the atomic age by painting what was within and shifting focus to an inner observer. The Post-Expressionists and Pop Artists explored what was outside again utilizing much of what the AbExers had taught them aesthetically and also as a reaction.

But it was not the simple act of "expressing oneself freely" that canonized many AbEx works. It is the unconscious universal resonance that such inner explorations, carried out in the spirit of artistic truth, have with the viewer that made those works significant and important works of art.
What we see with far too much conceptual and performance are today is that it is not carried out in this same spirit of artistic integrity. These works are merely presented with outsider-posturing as confrontationally as possible to provoke a base reaction for shock value. And these works are far more kitschy caca than Dada; as Rob stated early on, they are just plain "bad art." Art-as-formula is never a good thing. The media coverage of the art world has the propensity to act as a negative influence for this very reason. In many cases, even good artists tend to become formulaic caricatures ofthemsleves over time as their work becomes branded to a certain type by the media and critics.

I'm certainly not going to expend the energy to write
in any sort of real depth. And I'm off to a cookout and
kegger after the Wimbledon coverage.

I do however agree that blanket judgements are, at the very least,
distasteful and, at their worst,
repellent. But, at the same time, whereas relativity rules all, there
are also some people in this world that have more knowledge than
others. It cuts both ways, now doesn't it? Just who are you to
presume that you are as informed as the critics? What makes you think that you should be able to personally pick what's in the canon? It doesn't work that way.
Is it certainly not possible that there are people who
know more than you do about a certain field? With this in mind,
who's being presumptuous here, really? I think you always have to
ask yourself that question.

Let's take into consideration the fact that art should move with the times, not against them, shall we? Tokolosh, my man, you still haven't made a single point of interest about anything on this thread, apart from the usual smug antagonism of yore. What I mean by serious point, is one that you can express and defend all by yourself, if you get what I mean, which I doubt you do.

[Tokolosh]

That's your problem. Piss off!

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

That's your problem. Piss off!

Oh, c'mon Tokolosh! Look what I have for you. Sniff.

 

[atari 2600]

What about me? Isn't someone going to "call the nurse" or "guess my medication" or something?

[Florya]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

i think if it doesn't need an audience then it's not art.

I accept that this is your opinion, but disagree with it in the strongest possible terms.