[moppity]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

has anything thing ever been achieved from internet petitions? I.e. examples. (genuine question, not rhetorical)

Metallica came to Christchurch, NZ after an internet petition lolz.

[knox]

[quote=DeadDiscoDildo] All governments are SHIT man. SHIT.
quote]

yes. and?

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by DeadDiscoDildo

While I do not believe in War, I recognize that we ARE in one and I feel that non military personal have NO right interfering and making public battle strategies and plans etc.

What we didnt know all government is corrupt and doesnt tell the public whats really going on? Jesus christ, grow up already or start the revolution yourself. But this guy certainly isnt starting any kind of revolution.

Just damaging already sensitive relations in the world.

Amen! No government shares all of its communications and activities with the public, and they are not obligated to, morally or otherwise. Imagine if Hitler had been able to access allied military communications. (Although I suspect some people here think the world would have been better had Hitler won.)

As for WikiLeaks, I don't know if it's illegal to publish information that you know was stolen, but it should be.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Glice

I was thinking about this today, as it happens. And I think you're right, but I also wonder what happens if the war is brought into people's actual frames of reference. We've seen with the student protests that enough of a change to the status quo and people get upset (putting it mildly). You change the oil prices and people blockade ports. In the case of war - and this requires a sort of ignoring of the technical bases of war now - if you had conscription I think you'd find a lot more people saying 'hang on, I don't want a part of this bollocks'. Of course, war is mired in the play of vulgar capitalism (that Thatcherite lie of war being good for the economy is only the beginning) so this is difficult. But I do - probably naively - feel that people aren't stupid, they're just largely rendered neuter.

I think people generally mobilitate with more determination when a war has the maximum effect on their own immediate situation. Of course the war in Iraq was initially opposed by massive worldwide demonstrations, but none of them sparked the start of real government-bothering organisations because the effects of it are spread in what is likely to happen in decades to come, and most people don't immediatly associate dangerous shakes in the economy with a war not happening on their own doorstep. The nature of those initial demos was no more than a paen to the wrongness of going to war, not exactly something a head of state takes seriously unless their scale and regularity will manifest the extent of the protesters' malcontent with more serious consequences for public safety.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

I'm not saying CERN is un-profitable, it's just odd that thousands of people, including governments, have seen fit to throw billions at it.

The UK increasingly is turning to failed and failing schemes from the US, like the housing bubble and the military-industrial complex, and projects like CERN are European NASA debacles.. Billions and billions of dollars spent on intellectual sparring and posturing and pandering, its absurdly embarrassing.

I've thought for a while that a form of fascism is necessary in the face of climate change - I don't really trust people to give up their oil-based lifestyles in the face of impending catastrophe without statist intervention. Simple cases of that being places like Athens' approach to pollution (which had minimal effect) or Switzerland (I think?) making idling illegal.

Democracy is dangerous, because it gives a kind of pseudo-legitimacy to those who have the resources to yell the loudest over the others. The traditional example warning of the dangerous of popular democracy is the arrest and trial of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ represented the popular leadership and sentiment of a rising group of Maccabean inspired revolutionaries to the Romanized-Jewish colonial establishment. A corrupt faction of political, religious and business leaders gathered together in a cabal to put the movement down, abusing the legal mechanisms of the state to do their dirty work. As it says in the Gospels, the voices of the Pharisees and the Chief Priests was louder than the people, and so Jesus Christ was condemned. In Christian theological Christology, Jesus Christ on the Cross signifies the crucifixion of all the common masses by the greed and selfishness of a corrupt few, the worst in humanity exploiting the best. The humble, the poor, the day to day people are sacrificed in the name of progress, and much as in Athens itself, the concept of "democracy" actually allowed a corrupt few to claim a false legitimacy and popular mandate. Pontius Pilate is in fact recognized as a Saint (!) for having insisted of releasing Jesus Christ, and from a historical interpretation (ie, non-Christological) Pilate was limited by politics of the mob rule and group-think. The voices of the corrupt political voices in Jerusalem prevailed over reason..

Today, Zionists in Israel and super-Rightists in the United States prove that the veil of pseudo-democracy is dangerous, as people use the illusion of democratic idealism to perpetuate war, bigotry, racism, exploitation and other horrifying detriments of our societies. The Zionists are claiming that concessions to the Arabs are against the democratic will of the people of Israel. The Rightists and hawks and capitalists (from both sides of the aisle ) are yelling about democracy and claiming civil rights measures against xenophobia, racism, bigotry and discrimination (like the Dream Act, repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell, pacifist movements, etc etc) are undemocratic, and the the will of the people (at least the loudest yelling gripers) even if morally wrong should be allowed. They made the same silly arguments during the Civil Rights era, and we have learned that it was all a bunch of bullshit. These folks are crucifying all of the people of the world to fulfill their corrupt, self-serving agendas, and it is frighteningly menacing.

Democratic principles are good, but democracy itself is rather dangerous, which honestly why it doesn't exist anywhere. People change often to indifferent or sensational to be responsible for true power, elections are really just litmus tests more so than determinations of power, and for the greater good if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

I think people generally mobilitate with more determination when a war has the maximum effect on their own immediate situation. Of course the war in Iraq was initially opposed by massive worldwide demonstrations, but none of them sparked the start of real government-bothering organisations because the effects of it are spread in what is likely to happen in decades to come, and most people don't immediatly associate dangerous shakes in the economy with a war not happening on their own doorstep. The nature of those initial demos was no more than a paen to the wrongness of going to war, not exactly something a head of state takes seriously unless their scale and regularity will manifest the extent of the protesters' malcontent with more serious consequences for public safety.

The Hawks and the folks trapped in the military-industrial complex had the loudest voices. These were folks whose entire careers had been invested in the cold war, and they needed a new "war on terror" to spark their industries. Plus, they had the shame of Vietnam and the sentiment of not getting the job done in Iraq in the Gulf War to pump up their pep rallies. Saddam was the perfect boogie man, and much like bin Laden the US had once been a firm ally, giving money and arms for years to support proxy wars.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

Amen! No government shares all of its communications and activities with the public, and they are not obligated to, morally or otherwise. Imagine if Hitler had been able to access allied military communications. (Although I suspect some people here think the world would have been better had Hitler won.)

As for WikiLeaks, I don't know if it's illegal to publish information that you know was stolen, but it should be.

Makes no sense. Governments use "secrets" and control information to be able to commit atrocities. I know people like to overuse the Hitler example, as if genocide and abuse weren't happening right now.

As for governments being "entitled" to have secrets, really? Aren't we the ones to vote for them, aren't we supposed to know what they really do?

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by knox

Makes no sense. Governments use "secrets" and control information to be able to commit atrocities. I know people like to overuse the Hitler example, as if genocide and abuse weren't happening right now.

As for governments being "entitled" to have secrets, really? Aren't we the ones to vote for them, aren't we supposed to know what they really do?

It makes perfect sense. When the U.S. was founded, we chose representative democracy as our form of government, not pure democracy. There's a reason, for example, why every law, issue and budget item is not decided by referendum.

Of course, governments need to be accountable to the people. But we live in an insecure world, and a big part of a government's role is to protect its people from foreign aggression. A government can't do that if every move it makes is revealed to the public. Secrecy may not sound pleasant, but it's necessary.

[knox]

wow.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

Whoa.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

So if it's not the Military or the Politicians running things Knox, who should? The people?
HAHAHA

People are fucking stupid.

[kinn]

yes you are.

[kinn]

and it's not like you want to debate. you just don't want to know. i don't care that this is the case. i didn't really expect you to take down capitalist imperialism all by yourself. just don't tell the rest of us we should either support the military or be quiet because that IS stupid.

and there are people amongst the US population that are far more intelligent and sane than those in charge of foreign policy. people who aren't as insane as rumsfeld, people who don't believe in neo conservatism or american exceptionalism or millenarianism ffs. same in the uk.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

And you should be so fucking proud of yourself. Whining on a message board.

What do you do for a living? Why dont you do something about it?

[kinn]

well i read a lot, and think. which helps me not end up as the person who demands you either do something about it or shut up.

it also helps me stay out of atrocious indie bands.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

Uh huh.

That's what I thought.

[kinn]

well i do work. i wouldn't if i could get away with it.

the fact that i do or don't has nothing to do with anything being discussed. you might think otherwise.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by kinn

well i read a lot, and think. which helps me not end up as the person who demands you either do something about it or shut up.

it also helps me stay out of atrocious indie bands.

Please read a lot, stay out of shit indie bands and post on here 24/7. It helps.

[Genteel Death]

If you ever feel like turning into John Lennon, I'd rather you killed yourself.

[kinn]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Please read a lot, stay out of shit indie bands and post on here 24/7. It helps.

that's exactly why i said that posting here helps get soldiers blown up faster, because for every 1 post you make i donate 1quid to al qaeda. but you weren't reading enough as usual.

and when have i ever not made it abundantly clear i killed lennon for the cia?

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by kinn

that's exactly why i said that posting here helps get soldiers blown up faster, because for every 1 post you make i donate 1quid to al qaeda. but you weren't reading enough as usual.

and when have i ever not made it abundantly clear i killed lennon for the cia?

Oh you.