[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

if democrats are going to rehash their false narrative blaming Nader for Bush II well they are playing with fire. That Al Gore couldn't get about 600 vptes in Florida says a lot more about Al Gore than it says anything about Nader

I don't know man. Florida is an extremely tricky state demographically speaking. Not only does the population ebb and flow throughout the year as people move to and from the place seasonally, making it infamously hard to poll accurately and reliably, but the state is full of sub-demographics that are diametrically opposed to each other. Young and old, progressive and traditional, LGBT and pro-LGBT and dogshit sniffing rednecks, extremely impoverished boomers and upper class millennials, blah! It's an easy state to lose, and I'm not sure Gore's inability to gain the electoral votes in FLA says much about him at all. The state is just as "Deep South" minded as it is progressive.

I think it's pure lunacy to vote for a third party this time around. And it will continue to be lunacy until one of those parties (the god awful Libs or the Greens) does the necessary work in the off-years to get themselves truly established. Every cycle it's the same... Heu! Nobody pays attention to us! Get us on the ballot! Stop being lazy, you want change!!

But then four years go by and both parties and quiet and complacent and rarely make a big push during the mid terms.

I'll consider voting Green (maybe) when the Green Party does the legwork to build itself up into something formidable that can actually compete with the Dems and Repos without fucking things up.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

sev, nader had almost 100,000 votes in Florida, those were clearly to even the left of Gore, so the original point stands, if Gore couldnt convince 600 people in Florida who supported Nader to vote for him that isn't Ralph Mader's fault

[!@#$%!]

there's only something "murky" about obama's birth if you're a racist whose mind is in panic about having a black president.

otherwise no.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

David Icke GOP Nominee 2020

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Severian

I don't know man. Florida is an extremely tricky state demographically speaking. Not only does the population ebb and flow throughout the year as people move to and from the place seasonally, making it infamously hard to poll accurately and reliably, but the state is full of sub-demographics that are diametrically opposed to each other. Young and old, progressive and traditional, LGBT and pro-LGBT and dogshit sniffing rednecks, extremely impoverished boomers and upper class millennials, blah! It's an easy state to lose, and I'm not sure Gore's inability to gain the electoral votes in FLA says much about him at all. The state is just as "Deep South" minded as it is progressive.

I think it's pure lunacy to vote for a third party this time around. And it will continue to be lunacy until one of those parties (the god awful Libs or the Greens) does the necessary work in the off-years to get themselves truly established. Every cycle it's the same... Heu! Nobody pays attention to us! Get us on the ballot! Stop being lazy, you want change!!

But then four years go by and both parties and quiet and complacent and rarely make a big push during the mid terms.

I'll consider voting Green (maybe) when the Green Party does the legwork to build itself up into something formidable that can actually compete with the Dems and Repos without fucking things up.

this is what i hate about those 3rd party candidates-- they don't bother to build up a base and participate in local and state elections. like, they could maybe take vermont or something. but no-- it's just some bullshit presidential dance with 0 power base. run a city first. run a county. get some laws passed in state legislatures. install a governor. build a reputation based on governance not rhetoric. otherwise it's just bullshit.

i would find it more interesting if we had multiple parties with specific issues instead of two big tents; but as it is right now if you want environmental reforms you have to go through the environmental faction of the democrats because the greens can't do shit. and if you're a libertarian you have to work through the repukes like aqua-buddha. it's how the system works. perfect? no. but it's what we have and the rest is empty gestures at least for now.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

this is what i hate about those 3rd party candidates-- they don't bother to build up a base and participate in local and state elections. like, they could maybe take vermont or something. but no-- it's just some bullshit presidential dance with 0 power base. run a city first. run a county. get some laws passed in state legislatures. install a governor. build a reputation based on governance not rhetoric. otherwise it's just bullshit.

i would find it more interesting if we had multiple parties with specific issues instead of two big tents; but as it is right now if you want environmental reforms you have to go through the environmental faction of the democrats because the greens can't do shit. and if you're a libertarian you have to work through the repukes like aqua-buddha. it's how the system works. perfect? no. but it's what we have and the rest is empty gestures at least for now.

Yeah. I had friends who admonished me for voting for Obama (and Kerry, and Gore) because they'd said I wasn't doing anything to be "part of the solution."

Well, friends, with the alt parties as they are (and as they have been for eons) the "solution" has nothing to do with them. The system in place is not going to fall apart over night. It takes decades of real work, minimum. So my way of being "part of the solution" was researching dems, making the best pick I could during the primaries, and then voting for the dem in the general because working within the current system is, for better or worse, the only logical thing to do.

I'm not going to toss out my vote and ignore the imminent problem in favor of some ideal that MIGHT work out in a few decades.

[ilduclo]

3 debates conclusion " a smoking ruin"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=IlLFTI24Qkw

[!@#$%!]

@severian, the 2-party system does provide changes just like other system but things work out differently.

e.g., obama beat hillary in 2008 and gave us health care reform and a more dovish foreign policy

now bernie sanders lost, but seems to have made some sort of deal with hillary for education if we go by what she said last night-- don't have the specifics right now or time to search them but change does come from interparty dissension or bipartisan deals

so what gets worked out in coalitions within something a parliamentary system gets worked out by caucuses in the 2-party system

parliamentary is not necessarily that revolutionary-- see for example netanyahu's rule in israel, a country that has moved further to the right in the past 2+ decades

but now speaking of the environment, funny thing, the EPA was created by nixon if i'm not mistaken.

how times change.

[evollove]

Originally Posted by ilduclo

3 debates conclusion " a smoking ruin"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=IlLFTI24Qkw

I don't know if Ezra Klein is my "hero" (I reserve that word for rare, extraordinary cases) but he's damn close.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

considering the version of healthcare reform passed was basically the Newt Gingrich plan and not the one America actually needed and how its hard to really categorize the past 8 years of a dozen military operations oversees as dovish i dare say the two party system didn't accomplish much

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

this is what i hate about those 3rd party candidates-- they don't bother to build up a base and participate in local and state elections. like, they could maybe take vermont or something. but no-- it's just some bullshit presidential dance with 0 power base. run a city first. run a county. get some laws passed in state legislatures. install a governor. build a reputation based on governance not rhetoric. otherwise it's just bullshit.

i would find it more interesting if we had multiple parties with specific issues instead of two big tents; but as it is right now if you want environmental reforms you have to go through the environmental faction of the democrats because the greens can't do shit. and if you're a libertarian you have to work through the repukes like aqua-buddha. it's how the system works. perfect? no. but it's what we have and the rest is empty gestures at least for now.

i agree with this to an extent, BUT at least here in CA third parties do have some local political clout, sitting on municipal councils and even a few state legislature seats.

but yeah third parties generally fail at building coalitions and local power bases BUT i also largely fault this to the dynamics of the machinery of the two party system. if US had a parliamentary system might be easier to accomplish these political goals as the major party machinery becomes less entrenched

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

also the reasons parliamentary system hasn't worked as well in Israel is its a smaller population, much easier for one party of ideology to dominate

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Robert Schunk

He did, indeed, burst on the scene quite suddenly, and given his foriegn father and multiple countries of residence during his childhood the question was there to be asked.

No it really wasn't except for within a markedly racist or xenophobic component of our society. American citizens can live abroad for as long as they or their family likes or prefer, so long as someone has a birth certificate they are an American citizen without question. Indeed, the entire birther argument was silly and stupid, it would take a massive conspiracy for a non-citizen to be elevated all the way to president.

When you mentioned Jesse Jackson or Colin Powell, how is Barry Obama different than them? Because his father is from Kenya?? A LOT of native born Americans have foreign born parents! Its not entirely unusual at all!
Reality is he is a black man, with a foreign sounding name, which amassed unnecessary vitriol, scrutiny, and criticism. Again, the dude was elected president, what, did anyone honestly believe he survived the vetting process of primaries and a national election? I find it hilarious that it was even remotely made into an issue at all! I mean, in the scheme of things Obama might be the least scandalous presidential candidate we have ever had and yet was mercilessly scandalized! Hillary Clinton? I get it, she has A LOT of baggage. Bush family? Yup. Trump? Where do we start? But what scandals was Obama ever involved in before his election? Guy is literally squeaky clean! Now he certainly has gotten his hands dirty as President, but going into it I honestly can't understand what motivated the vitriol against him aside from racism. Even partisan politics are not THAT divisive..

I am not accusing or insinuating you are racist btw, just mentioning the specific context as to why it is NOT in anyway a legitimate or even reasonable question.

That doesn't mean it has to be false, either.

Of course, and suspicion isn't evidence of guilt so much as lack of evidence of innocence is certainly going to warrant reasonable suspicion yes?

[The Soup Nazi]

 

Le Tigre Reunite for New Pro-Hillary Clinton Song and Video - "I'm With Her"

[tw2113]

Responding quickly to the thread title. I like to believe he wasn't at first, but then the GOP turned him into one, and here we are.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

considering the version of healthcare reform passed was basically the Newt Gingrich plan and not the one America actually needed and how its hard to really categorize the past 8 years of a dozen military operations oversees as dovish i dare say the two party system didn't accomplish much

Obamacare did get quite butchered, it's true. I know Obama needed to get re-elected, and as a result had a host of proverbial guns pointed at his head, but he allowed the premise of the plan to be perverted by making it essentially a federally curated "marketplace" filled with private companies.

One step forward, and several steps.. well, if not back then definitely to the side. It could have been something much greater. It is essentially a giant bureaucratic kerfuffle. A mess, and a headache to millions. But a lot of people have coverage who didn't qualify for it before. That's positive. What sucks is that the expanded Medicaid is given out and taken away at the drop of a hat, making it so nobody can rest easy about this coverage.

Single pay all the way. Needs to happen. I know this has been an issue close to Hillary's heart since before she was First Lady.

What I do like about Hillary is what so many fragile democrats and idealistic progressives hate about her. She's a wolf. Essentially, she's a democrat with a republican's ethics, ubafraid to do whatever is necessary to put her ideas into action. This makes her rather vile, sure, but her ideas are (God, I want to just say BETTER and, like, NOT FUCKING INSANE, but I'll just go with...) "more in line with my own," and I'm tired of seeing weak knees democrats get smeared and beaten down, either in elections or in the public eye, because they're not willing to fight like the Repos.

I feel like I'm going to regret saying all of this in a few minutes but whatevs.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

great point about Hillary Das Wolfe, personally i think that when all the dust settles she will be like LBJ, she has enough political experience and clout, especially within the framework of the Legislature, that she will have the personal connections and diplomatic skill set to get the horse trading done to get some serious legislation passed. indeed that was precisely what went wrong with Obama administration.. Obama had to trade too many of his own horses and so the "liberals" didn't get SHIT.

honestly and all facetious jesting aside, Obama has been the best Republican president America has ever had because he certainly hasn't been a liberal one by any definition.

[pepper_green]

Originally Posted by Severian

What I do like about Hillary is what so many fragile democrats and idealistic progressives hate about her. She's a wolf. Essentially, she's a democrat with a republican's ethics, ubafraid to do whatever is necessary to put her ideas into action. This makes her rather vile, sure, but her ideas are (God, I want to just say BETTER and, like, NOT FUCKING INSANE, but I'll just go with...) "more in line with my own," and I'm tired of seeing weak knees democrats get smeared and beaten down, either in elections or in the public eye, because they're not willing to fight like the Repos..

this is exactly why im not going to be her bitch boy like you and others. Dems have gotten nasty, more nasty than I can tolerate. fighting fire with fire to compete just exposes the corruptness both of the parties. if your not disillusioned like the others you need to check yr priorities boy.

you hate Fox News? I can name five other networks just as worst. like that cunt that replaced David Letterman.

not voting, and if someone held a gun to my head i'll vote for Gary Johnson just to say I voted.

[pepper_green]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

great point about Hillary Das Wolfe, personally i think that when all the dust settles she will be like LBJ, she has enough political experience and clout, especially within the framework of the Legislature, that she will have the personal connections and diplomatic skill set to get the horse trading done to get some serious legislation passed. indeed that was precisely what went wrong with Obama administration.. Obama had to trade too many of his own horses and so the "liberals" didn't get SHIT.

honestly and all facetious jesting aside, Obama has been the best Republican president America has ever had because he certainly hasn't been a liberal one by any definition.

what a joke!

[pepper_green]

Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi

 

Le Tigre Reunite for New Pro-Hillary Clinton Song and Video - "I'm With Her"

barf!! wax museum kiddie dance protest music overdosed on the B-52's. lame ass lame!! the punk retirement home is just around the corner. they should check it out.