[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

Are you SCARED when you find yourself in an elevator with a strange woman?
Are you scared to walk alone to your car, not for your wallet or your phone, but for something much greater?

How many times a week, on average, do you hear somebody shouting something demeaning at you as you're going to work about your body then told to "take it as a compliment"? How often is your size, hair or make-up discussed in the work environment?

.

Knoxy my dear, we've had this chat before. I am the first to call out the objectification of women by men, but lets not over sell it here. I've explained to you years ago now that while it is a pathetically sad reality that 1 in 4 women will be molested, raped, or sexually assaulted in her lifetime, however, you need to remember that its not exactly like men walk around unafraid of each other. Men are JUST AS AFRAID OF ALTERCATIONS WITH OTHER MEN as women are afraid of altercations with men. The sexual part makes it more tragic, but the threat of intimidation and/or violence remains the same.

Men play a Darwinian dance of sizing up all other potential males at every instance and encounter, and sometimes it can like in the animal kingdom result in a straight life or death struggle. Have I ever been honestly worried about being raped in an elevator or ally way? No. Have I spontaneously and unexpectedly ended up in quite literally LIFE AND DEATH struggles with random men? Yes, on several occasions. In fact, several folks I've known are now deceased from such violence, many more have been straight shot and thank the good Lord survived, some still have the bullets in their bodies as a reminder. Aggression is what it is, but there are aggressive asshole men out there, just don't think that it only applies to women. Men have to watch their backs too yo.

[Trama]

Knox, we are not far removed ideologically, but I really hate that type of rhetoric.

[knox]

Altercations?
ALTERCATIONS?

Are you trying to compare regular violence with sexual violence?

That makes me really sad.

Also, that shit about men = violence, debunked.
This fake "equalization" makes me really sad coming from you.

Also, men are more likely to suffer violence from... other men.

The way people try to normalize and equalize shit is disturbing.
Hate crime is not the same as regular crime.


See:
.1 American women are killed by intimate partners (husbands, lovers, ex-husbands, or ex-lovers) more often than by any other type of perpetrator.2–4 Intimate partner homicide accounts for approximately 40% to 50% of US femicides but a relatively small proportion of male homicides (5.9%).1,5–10 The percentage of intimate partner homicides involving male victims decreased between 1976 and 1996, whereas the percentage of female victims increased, from 54% to 72%.4

[knox]

Originally Posted by Trama

Knox, we are not far removed ideologically, but I really hate that type of rhetoric.

what type of rethoric? statistics?
do you really need them, because I got plenty.
I just don't think it's necessary, over something that's so obvious.

[Trama]

Straw man fallacy, I think it's called.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

Are you trying to compare regular violence with sexual violence?

That makes me really sad.

What makes me sad is you truly missed my point. I am trying to tell you that men live in fear of other men as much as women live in fear of men, its just more subtle and machismo causes most men to deny it. A misunderstanding or a fist fight can turn into a life or death struggle in one second's time. I am telling you that men have fear of other men as much as women have fear of other men. It makes me sad that you would try to deny the significance of this. Simply put, men kill and seriously injure each other all the time. Isn't FEAR OF DYING SIMILAR TO FEAR OF BEING RAPED?

Also, men are more likely to suffer violence from... other men.

Yes, precisely my point. You are saying men don't understand what women experience because of women's fear of sexual violence, I am telling you that is full of shit, because men are equally and constantly afraid of other men for similar threats of violence and even loss of life. If you can't understand that, I am sorry, but it doesn't make it any less true.

The way people try to normalize and equalize shit is disturbing.
Hate crime is not the same as regular crime.

Really? So people getting beat into a coma, stabbed, or shot dead in the street over a misunderstanding is just regular now? Who is trying to normalize what now

You need to step back from your computer, pause, breath, and reflect, because you are letting your anger and emotions get the better of your argument.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Trama

Straw man fallacy, I think it's called.

Fallacy?
Are you sure?
You tried to imply that objetification is done equally to women and men.
I think even you know that qualifies as a fallacy.

But if you want numbers, I can give you numbers, it's no problem at all.

I just don't think we need to go there, over something so undeniable.

We can have a nice debate, in fact, I posted a link with a very interesting video with plenty of stats about this. You should comment on it, that'd be interesting.

But I'm guessing that the interest here is not so much having a nice debate as it is trying to "minimize" the relevance of what I'm saying.

[knox]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

What makes me sad is you truly missed my point. I am trying to tell you that men live in fear of other men as much as women live in fear of men, its just more subtle and machismo causes most men to deny it. A misunderstanding or a fist fight can turn into a life or death struggle in one second's time. I am telling you that men have fear of other men as much as women have fear of other men. It makes me sad that you would try to deny the significance of this. Simply put, men kill and seriously injure each other all the time. Isn't FEAR OF DYING SIMILAR TO FEAR OF BEING RAPED?



Yes, precisely my point. You are saying men don't understand what women experience because of women's fear of sexual violence, I am telling you that is full of shit, because men are equally and constantly afraid of other men for similar threats of violence and even loss of life. If you can't understand that, I am sorry, but it doesn't make it any less true.


Really? So people getting beat into a coma, stabbed, or shot dead in the street over a misunderstanding is just regular now? Who is trying to normalize what now

You need to step back from your computer, pause, breath, and reflect, because you are letting your anger and emotions get the better of your argument.

I'm sorry, I posted data there.
You should comment on it.
When I said "regular" violence, you know for a fact I meant non-sexual violence. You cannot compare the fear of being mugged with the fear of being raped.
Especially because rape happens a lot more often than murder, and in most cases, is not punished. In most cases, the victim is somehow blamed and there is no justice.

http://www.alternet.org/civil-libert...t-bite-kick-or

If you had read the data, you'd see that most men are killed outside their homes. Most women are killed inside their homes.
You'd also see that 50% of women killed in the US are killed by intimate partners, while that is 5% for men.
You'd also see that violence against women has been INCREASING.

So why has it been increasing?

I'm truly shocked at how you normalize sexual violence and the state of terror it causes.
Every time I go out and I hear some funny comment from a stranger, cat calling?
You think that's not violence? Not something to fear?
Perhaps you think it's a compiment?
For us, it's a threat.

Also, how many times do you hear about people being murdered and having the juri discuss how much of the murder was the person's fault or the fault of what he was wearing?

So, you can't compare living in a state of terror in which whatever violent act done against you is blamed on you.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

I'm sorry, I posted data there.
You should comment on it.
When I said "regular" violence, you know for a fact I meant non-sexual violence. You cannot compare the fear of being mugged with the fear of being raped.
Especially because rape happens a lot more often than murder, and in most cases, is not punished. In most cases, the victim is somehow blamed and there is no justice.

http://www.alternet.org/civil-libert...t-bite-kick-or

If you had read the data, you'd see that most men are killed outside their homes. Most women are killed inside their homes.
You'd also see that 50% of women killed in the US are killed by intimate partners, while that is 5% for men.
You'd also see that violence against women has been INCREASING.

So why has it been increasing?

I'm truly shocked at how you normalize sexual violence and the state of terror it causes.
Every time I go out and I hear some funny comment from a stranger, cat calling?
You think that's not violence? Not something to fear?
Perhaps you think it's a compiment?
For us, it's a threat.

I didn't say mugged, I said violence. Sexual assault is a form of violence, a tragic one at that, but it is still violence all the same. If a person is beat senselessly into a coma is that not also tragic? If a person is stabbed several times is that not also tragic? If a person is shot, perhaps killed, is THAT not tragic? See where you missed my point? I am trying to say that the experience of women is not as foreign to men as you might think or are trying to say. By the way, please don't put words into my mouth. I haven't "normalized" sexual violence, but somehow it is now YOU who have seemed to "normalize" extreme violence in general. Violence of any kind, is never normal, period. If it is sexual or not, it is still wrong for the same reasons, because it is harming another person. I am not talking about getting a black eye, I am talking about serious violence, and yes, on a day to day basis men face this threat of serious violence. I do, and all you have to do is open up a fucking newspaper to find out that so do many other men and women out there. In this, we are equal, and if you can't accept that, I am sincerely sorry.

Violence = physical harm to the body, sometimes severe.

Is not sexual assault harm to the body? It is a kind of violence. Are not men also victim of random violence by other shady men the way women are victim of sexual violence by shady men? Yes. See what I am trying to say here? Again, pause, breath, and reflect, because your anger is devolving into hyperbole now

[knox]

"Isn't FEAR OF DYING SIMILAR TO FEAR OF BEING RAPED?" --> No, it's not.

[Trama]

Originally Posted by knox

Fallacy?
Are you sure?
You tried to imply that objetification is done equally to women and men.
I think even you know that qualifies as a fallacy.

But if you want numbers, I can give you numbers, it's no problem at all.

I just don't think we need to go there, over something so undeniable.

We can have a nice debate, in fact, I posted a link with a very interesting video with plenty of stats about this. You should comment on it, that'd be interesting.

But I'm guessing that the interest here is not so much having a nice debate as it is trying to "minimize" the relevance of what I'm saying.

 

[knox]

Yes, darling, the experience of women is foreign to a man.
If you don't admit to that, you're just using your male privilege to deny a fact, create a false equality and shut us up about your own issues.

The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability. (More).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.
35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).
39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.
40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).
45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment. (More.)
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

Yes, darling, the experience of women is foreign to a man.
If you don't admit to that, you're just using your male privilege to deny a fact,

 

You're hyperbole is talking more and more out of your ass now. Whatever yo..

[knox]

I don't have to sit here discussing with men that have no interest in checking their own privilege, listening, being allies, learning, allowing women to express themselves without denial or retaliation. Men who seem more interested in ridiculing a woman for speaking up, dismissing data in order to avoid a healthy debate and making every logical stretch to try and pretend they live in a world in which they have no privilege for being men trying to argue a false equality.

You don't know how it feels because you're sinking in your own privilege.
Just like so many white people do when people talk about racism or rich people do when people talk about poverty.

You like to brag about being more enlightened and respectful than most sexist men, but the knee jerk reaction is exactly the same.

You cannot help the women in your life that way.

I know you like to think you're not sexist and disrespectful towards women, but that's what you're being right now.

It's disappointing and really sad.
I'm not going to waste my time with people who clearly don't care. Unfortunately, it's nothing new, it's just cliche. Hopefully you'll come around one day but I'm not in the mood to be disrespected and patronized right now.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Murmer99

Found it randomly. It stimulates my fascination with prosthesis and dolls and whatnot, but I promise I'm not into Agalmatophilia.

And contrary to what I might've said in the past, I'd like to clarify that I'm not into scat porn either. Well, maybe to some degree I am.

but you posted it here because it seems to say something about female objectification in the media today, right? sort of like striving to achieve it and still remain an individual when you're told you're more a commodity than a person. or feeling detached from how that body is segmented and perceived as a commodity...

[knox]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Is not sexual assault harm to the body?

That is truly the saddest thing I've read in a long time
On so many levels I cannot even begin to describe how insensitive and wrong that is.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

That is truly the saddest thing I've read in a long time
On so many levels I cannot even begin to describe how insensitive and wrong that is.

 

seriously-- if you're the spokesperson for feminism, women everywhere are doomed.

"everyone who disagrees with me is a rapist"

how infinitely dumb and dull!

good night.

[knox]

OH, symbol-man.

More cliches from you.
Don't worry. I've marked you in my head as the most sexist person on this forum a long time ago.
I see that you're also into finding material against feminism.
What a surprise.

I never said anyone was a rapist but you couldn't let that cliche out, could you?

I'm not the spokesperson for feminism, thank god.
Thank god you're not a representation of men either.
You're just an asshole with some serious issues about women.


Good night.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

OH, symbol-man.

More cliches from you.
Don't worry. I've marked you in my head as the most sexist person on this forum a long time ago.
I see that you're also into finding material against feminism.
What a surprise.

I'm not the spokesperson for feminism, thank god.
Thank god you're not a representation of men either.
You're just asshole with some serious issues about women.

Good night.

i don't have a problem with "women", i just have a problem with you. you're not "women", you're just knox the internet professional victim-- a crazy person who can't find a way to sell a valid argument and blames the world for their own incompetence.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Murmer99

Yes. I thought it would be somewhat relevant.

That was very nice of you, thanks.