[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by chocolate_ladyland

The newer stuff, while great, I think is a bit more planned out and loses some of the brute nihilism as a result.

How is ''White Light From the Mouth of Infinity'' less planned out than their new albums?

[Genteel Death]

If anything, that record came out at a time when even SY were getting some bad rap for softening their sound and making more calculated records.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by guest

swans always seemed so ideologically opposed to that, indeed they were like the total opposite, like audible nihilism, an immutable loathing of mankind.

Now they are on that optimistic Nihilism like the Desert Fathers

 

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

How is ''White Light From the Mouth of Infinity'' less planned out than their new albums?

Exactly, they were ALL more or less planned out, just that these past few records seem a bit more so, but I think these records reflect something like Sonic Nurse, a kind of structured chaos. Sonic Nurse was one of the most musical and structural records they ever put out, yet conversely it was filled with all kinds of chaotic feedback and harmonized with ambient noise. It felt like it bridged the gap between noise and music the way great jazz bridges the gap between structure and improvisation. In that regard, it think these past few Swans record nailed it, and while y'all will accuse me of bandwagoning, I didn't necessarily like their earlier music until they more recently shifted in this direction. By no coincidence, my favorite Sonic Youth era was 1998-2004 when they seemed to be doing a similar thing, and I embrace that it is the least popular of the Sonic Youth eras, and I also am starting to embrace the reality that "Swans fans" don't like this era and yet I dig it all the more, just like tool fans didn't like 10,000 Days whereas I thought it was there best, even Nirvana folks be shitting on In Utero when it was clearly a masterpiece I think too often folks want a band to be confined by their earlier works, but think about YOUR OWN LIVES FOR A SECOND, ARE YOU THE SAME PERSON YOU WERE TEN OR TWENTY YEARS AGO?

[Skuj]

Part of this debate makes me so happy that I discovered Swans around The Seer, and I've never listed to pre-My Father.... Swans. Perspective is such an important thing. Seer and TBK fuckin BLOW ME AWAY......a band that releases 4hrs of this music in just 2 years is very special indeed, and thank fuck I can enjoy it without "baggage" of 80s or 90s Swans. Also, it has to be said....80s and 90s Swans was a very different animal, personnel-wise.

[chocolate_ladyland]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

How is ''White Light From the Mouth of Infinity'' less planned out than their new albums?

I was talking about their albums up to and including Children of God

[chocolate_ladyland]

Even still, White Light is basically just a dark folk rock album with added flares. TBK and The Seer are HUGE records that sound way more meticulously planned.

I don't even really mean this as an insult (considering how much I enjoy all Swans incarnations), but the era I am most passionate about is the Filth to COG era because of said reasons.

[guest]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Exactly, they were ALL more or less planned out, just that these past few records seem a bit more so, but I think these records reflect something like Sonic Nurse, a kind of structured chaos. Sonic Nurse was one of the most musical and structural records they ever put out, yet conversely it was filled with all kinds of chaotic feedback and harmonized with ambient noise. It felt like it bridged the gap between noise and music the way great jazz bridges the gap between structure and improvisation. In that regard, it think these past few Swans record nailed it, and while y'all will accuse me of bandwagoning, I didn't necessarily like their earlier music until they more recently shifted in this direction. By no coincidence, my favorite Sonic Youth era was 1998-2004 when they seemed to be doing a similar thing, and I embrace that it is the least popular of the Sonic Youth eras, and I also am starting to embrace the reality that "Swans fans" don't like this era and yet I dig it all the more, just like tool fans didn't like 10,000 Days whereas I thought it was there best, even Nirvana folks be shitting on In Utero when it was clearly a masterpiece I think too often folks want a band to be confined by their earlier works, but think about YOUR OWN LIVES FOR A SECOND, ARE YOU THE SAME PERSON YOU WERE TEN OR TWENTY YEARS AGO?

again it's not a matter of resenting bandwagoning, but rather that gira has ostensibly divorced himself entirely from the patented brute honesty which so endeared me to swans in favour of presenting something less visceral or actually intense by reducing it to mere caricature, quite likely so as to attain a more sizable audience. so it's not the sound, the sound isn't what I'm bitching about at all, indeed the less song-based elements of their recent work (the karen o shit is a fucking death wish for me) are some of my favourite stuff of theirs, but rather that gira is belying what was once the bedrock of swans, its crux. regardless of the stylistic approach he took with each record they all were characterised by this indefinable, soul purging quality which aligned it with say haino in how fucking uncomfortable it was. now he's a veritable pop star figure (bear with me) in how he flits between personas ad nauseam, and to me it seems as if it's merely for dramatic effect as the illusion of theatre is far less alienating than a man spiritually disemboweling himself onstage.

so ANYWAY I quite like the record, but it's like patchy as fuck. screenshot's lyrics were pretty blatantly an afterthought, literally just gira reciting every single swans buzzword you can think of, things we do is pure unadulterated shit, the same cliche rubbish lyrics as screenshot but without a mad groove, and the title track isn't half as good as it sounded live, a context wherein it was one of the few times a live band has really horrified me, like being in the middle of a storm. a little god in my hands I'm not too big a fan of either. the rest of it is fantastic, with just a little boy being the standout for me. really good record, but not the work of a godlike genius as it has been presented to be.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by guest

again it's not a matter of resenting bandwagoning, but rather that gira has ostensibly divorced himself entirely from the patented brute honesty which so endeared me to swans in favour of presenting something less visceral or actually intense by reducing it to mere caricature, quite likely so as to attain a more sizable audience. so it's not the sound, the sound isn't what I'm bitching about at all, indeed the less song-based elements of their recent work (the karen o shit is a fucking death wish for me) are some of my favourite stuff of theirs, but rather that gira is belying what was once the bedrock of swans, its crux. regardless of the stylistic approach he took with each record they all were characterised by this indefinable, soul purging quality which aligned it with say haino in how fucking uncomfortable it was. .

While of course as a long time fan you are more then entitled to your opinion, I really don't think its a fair analysis so to say that the past two records are a caricature or earlier Swans simply because its less angry or self-destructive. If anything, what these last two records reflect in my opinion is the band "finding God" and not in any kind of religious or divine sense, rather in the sense of "coming to terms with ones' self." I think the earlier records were an abrasive self-reflection, where as in their more mature age its clear they've mellowed it, indeed, these records really have sounded like coming to terms with ones' own self and life and experiences. In that regard, I've fallen in even more love with them, because at least TO ME they help me cathartic purge my own internal doubt, angst, and frustrations. Its not just the lyrics, its the overall sound, it is a syncretic blend of chaos and noise yet subtly musical. To me, this seems like a reflection of life in general, life is chaotic, upsetting, and noisy but if we can find a calm within ourselves we can navigate the storm, indeed, we can enjoy the view. I think early Swans records reflect a kind of self-destructive abandonment as a way to conquer the natural fears of life, a kind of "fuck the fuck fuck it" approach, whereas these recent records feel like saying "fuck it" to saying "fuck it" and therefore come across both sonically and lyrically as a maturation, progression, and process of growth. That could just me projecting myself onto these records, but honestly, that just how I feel about them and why I've so particularly enjoyed them whereas I just could never get into earlier Swans, even though I love noise and abrasive feedback. Also, I always felt the mid-80s stuff was kind of campy and self-deprecating..
Also, these last two records make Children of God or The Burning World sound kind of soft in comparison, so really, aren't in some respects these records a bit heavier?

[Skuj]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

While of course as a long time fan you are more then entitled to your opinion, I really don't think its a fair analysis so to say that the past two records are a caricature or earlier Swans simply because its less angry or self-destructive. If anything, what these last two records reflect in my opinion is the band "finding God" and not in any kind of religious or divine sense, rather in the sense of "coming to terms with ones' self." I think the earlier records were an abrasive self-reflection, where as in their more mature age its clear they've mellowed it, indeed, these records really have sounded like coming to terms with ones' own self and life and experiences. In that regard, I've fallen in even more love with them, because at least TO ME they help me cathartic purge my own internal doubt, angst, and frustrations. Its not just the lyrics, its the overall sound, it is a syncretic blend of chaos and noise yet subtly musical. To me, this seems like a reflection of life in general, life is chaotic, upsetting, and noisy but if we can find a calm within ourselves we can navigate the storm, indeed, we can enjoy the view. I think early Swans records reflect a kind of self-destructive abandonment as a way to conquer the natural fears of life, a kind of "fuck the fuck fuck it" approach, whereas these recent records feel like saying "fuck it" to saying "fuck it" and therefore come across both sonically and lyrically as a maturation, progression, and process of growth. That could just me projecting myself onto these records, but honestly, that just how I feel about them and why I've so particularly enjoyed them whereas I just could never get into earlier Swans, even though I love noise and abrasive feedback. Also, I always felt the mid-80s stuff was kind of campy and self-deprecating..
Also, these last two records make Children of God or The Burning World sound kind of soft in comparison, so really, aren't in some respects these records a bit heavier?

I love what you are saying here (Even though I have never heard pre 2010 Swans. Yes I'm a Bandwagon guy.) Merzbow has been making wonderful sound art for 35 years, and I love how he has transformed his style as he pushes 60. He cannot and must not do Akasha Gulva again.

TBK has no weak moments to these ears. I think the 120min presentation is essential to current Swans.

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by guest

again it's not a matter of resenting bandwagoning, but rather that gira has ostensibly divorced himself entirely from the patented brute honesty which so endeared me to swans in favour of presenting something less visceral or actually intense by reducing it to mere caricature, quite likely so as to attain a more sizable audience. so it's not the sound, the sound isn't what I'm bitching about at all, indeed the less song-based elements of their recent work (the karen o shit is a fucking death wish for me) are some of my favourite stuff of theirs, but rather that gira is belying what was once the bedrock of swans, its crux. regardless of the stylistic approach he took with each record they all were characterised by this indefinable, soul purging quality which aligned it with say haino in how fucking uncomfortable it was. now he's a veritable pop star figure (bear with me) in how he flits between personas ad nauseam, and to me it seems as if it's merely for dramatic effect as the illusion of theatre is far less alienating than a man spiritually disemboweling himself onstage.

so ANYWAY I quite like the record, but it's like patchy as fuck. screenshot's lyrics were pretty blatantly an afterthought, literally just gira reciting every single swans buzzword you can think of, things we do is pure unadulterated shit, the same cliche rubbish lyrics as screenshot but without a mad groove, and the title track isn't half as good as it sounded live, a context wherein it was one of the few times a live band has really horrified me, like being in the middle of a storm. a little god in my hands I'm not too big a fan of either. the rest of it is fantastic, with just a little boy being the standout for me. really good record, but not the work of a godlike genius as it has been presented to be.

im the guy who was disagreeing with you earlier but now, i dont know.

the new record is ok but it is NOT what its being made out to be. the hype is getting sickening. this is hardly an incredibly dark record like people seem to think. it is really hard to like this album when you read this stuff.

you just know its all middle of the road indie dickheads who are getting way into this, as if its so dark and fucked up. it maybe is to those douches.

dont get me wrong, im glad gira is doing well for himself. he's in his 60's. it's all cool.

but still man, i kind of totally agree with you.

maybe gira took the early stuff as far as he could, if you read his book "the consumer" you'll see what i mean. i think the psychological space he was in was brought to its absolute limits in that book, which IMO would probably be made illegal in many places if it wasnt so obscure.

the points you make about gira the popstar - i'd argue he was already doing that back in the 90's. stuff like love of life and killing for company is borderline adult contemporary easy listening alternative rock. granted he's singing about about dennis nilsin talking to the corpses of young male prostitutes he's just murdered, but it's still pretty radio friendly.

its hard to condemn him for this because its still quality music and the guy has to make a fucking living somehow. also, after what he did in the 80's - there's only so far you can push yourself into that intensity.

glad they are touring with xiu xiu, hope jamie stewart electrocutes some of the new dudebro swans fans.

[dead_battery]

anyway. what is good about early swans is this brutal depiction of a human soul that is simultaneously tortured/seduced/held captive by money, flesh, addiction, sex, desire, hatred, labour etc.

gira was unique in the way he did that. he wasn't revelling in it so much as exposing it. he wasn't trying to overcome it or enjoy it of some sense of macho hedonism. he was reducing it to this base level where it just became a monotonous grind. it wasn't about becoming an animal or destroying yourself, it was about how humanity was embedded in its own systems of brutality, how everyone was entangled in it - how desire could so easily become abuse, how desperation and money and addiction reduced us to these base drives. the important thing about this early stuff was how it depicts a world in which everyone is complicit, there's no position of innocence. every perspective facilitates the abuse. even the passive observer is guilty. obviously, this kind of truth CANNOT be tolerated in our contemporary hyper positive consumer culture.

to my knowledge, noone else has ever done anything like that. its rare for musicians of all people to explore an aesthetic in the way gira did.

i have no time for much of what they did after that, talking about love or play acting like some cosmic pervert. i dont find this stuff particularly interesting. there's also a big theistic vibe to it all which i dont like.

everything that the swans explored in their early days is a anathema to mainstream indie entertainment which is obsessed with a context free perspective of innocent hedonism, a symptom of which is the decline in criticism and the snarly bitching at anyone you can't sneer into doing what they're supposed to, which is shutting up and "just enjoying it, man".

[dead_battery]

its not surprising that gira transcended this, first into a kind of sombre, dulled and slightly miserable romanticism, and now into this cosmic perversity.

this isn't a criticism of gira the person, because i think in early swans he got as far as anyone ever could into the depths of self created human hells. obviously since we can't really reach out of our own perspectives and biological drives, you can only go so far in mapping them before you have to pull back and make some sort of peace with it all.

so this probably explains why early swans is the sound of being embedded in the nightmare, of trying to cut a path through it by reducing it to brutal mechanical logic, and everything after the "love will tear us apart" cover is comes from a perspective looking down on the humans and lamenting/commenting on them.

and its telling that gira had second thoughts about that cover and at one point claimed it was no longer part of the swans canon.

im going to listen to all the stuff swans have done since the reformation and post about it later.

[Skuj]

Fuuuuuuck, where do I even start? dead battery, great handle!

I received my 2CD+DVD today. Bliss.

db, I guess I'm a MOR indie dickhead douche, as you say, because after many streams of this I am so into it you can see me in the grooves. Much more to you later, but I'm gonna enjoy the muthafuckin dvd live show now.

[Skuj]

Actually, db, your posts are very interesting and thoughtful, except for the parts where you completely dismiss (and dis) those who really fuckin enjoy the 2010+ releases. I genuinely do want to thank you for these posts, and you do compel me to explore early Swans, as other posters do. But WHY THE FUCK do some of us insist that 30yr old Gira and 60yr old Gira, surrounded by a very different cast of characters in ech era, not be in very different places in the spectrum that is still concerned with serious, powerful "rock" music? (And I come to Swans as a Noisehead.)

[dead_battery]

i didnt mean to say that.

the first post was like the engine starting up, noisy and unrefined, then it gets slightly better as it starts to function more smoothly.

i am NOT trying to attack the people who like the new swans record, just saying that im a bit embarrassed by some of the hype im reading. and after minimal reflection its obvious how stupid of me that is.

i guess im still clinging to a time when there was so much more silence around music and you could imagine the stuff you listened to was for a secret and exclusive audience of smart and interesting people. not the rockist dudebros who seem to be orgasming over how like, dark and fucked up the new swans is, man.

im really not saying that everyone who likes it is bad or something.

[dead_battery]

also, IRL i have been threatened and harassed continually by someone who is banging on about how great the new swans is. i do not speak to or acknowledge this person, but they have gone so far as to find me online and actually comment on other music ive posted with odd insults at what ive posted that bang on about how much of a macho badass michael gira is!

i doubt this idiot even knew about swans until the reformation era. so its kind of annoying to listen to this crap from someone who seemed to assume i'd not even heard of swans, when ive been listening to them for years.

so yeah, im prejudiced.

[Skuj]

Changing gears a bit, I seriously fuckin love this guy:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=y...&v=8NQyDKbGVOg

[guest]

okay suchman, the problem lies not in their 'finding of god' so much as it is that this discovery is so ideologically opposed to what endeared swans to me in the first place. to quote sir db:

"gira was unique in the way he did that. he wasn't revelling in it so much as exposing it. he wasn't trying to overcome it or enjoy it of some sense of macho hedonism. he was reducing it to this base level where it just became a monotonous grind. it wasn't about becoming an animal or destroying yourself, it was about how humanity was embedded in its own systems of brutality, how everyone was entangled in it - how desire could so easily become abuse, how desperation and money and addiction reduced us to these base drives. the important thing about this early stuff was how it depicts a world in which everyone is complicit, there's no position of innocence. every perspective facilitates the abuse. even the passive observer is guilty. obviously, this kind of truth CANNOT be tolerated in our contemporary hyper positive consumer culture."

he nails it. gira was aligned with industrial music from the perspective of his sentiments in that he wasn't bemoaning the state of mankind, but rather objectively conjuring it. he didn't critique, he didn't offer a means of solution, but just spewed it out and left it to fester. there was a definite shift however around the time subsequent to children of god (with this new 'love-life' approach certainly permeating that record's intense spiritualism ughhhh) where gira seemed to allow some light into his worldview, albeit still tempering it with a liberal dose of his signature brutality. the new stuff, however, simply doesn't feel honest in that gira's worldview has undoubtedly changed. on the new record, take something like 'some things we do' or 'screenshot' where he is merely rattling off phrases which could have been picked out of a swans lyrics hat for fuck's sake. therein lies the caricature (forgive me for the skewed thought, I'm real fucking tired).

skuj you raise merzbow, who fits pretty perfectly into what I'm saying. from the outset the purpose of akita's music has been to evoke an almost synaesthetic response, to create decidedly psychedelic visions by way of pure sensory overload. of course, to compare the material documented on lowest arts & music and say oersted is to find a distinctly advanced approach to sound, employing more deftly a wider range of sounds, greater use of dynamics etc. and yet the fundamental outcome remains the same: to overload the listener using a barrage of sounds to do so. this is the BASIC IDEOLOGICAL PREMISE of the merzbow project, and irrespective of the sources he is using to conjure said sounds, whether that be a computer or an array of shit, the fundamental intent remains intact. akita has clung steadfastly to his vision and has used a variety of means with which to achieve it. conversely, while gira and swans are using a markedly similar palette to that which they used on soundtracks for the blind, the purpose of the music is no longer to overwhelm but rather to achieve transcendence, to rise above the murk in which their music was previously grounded, if not inextricably immersed in. it was this latter approach which drew me to them; a 15 year old kid jaded by the sad state of rock music, seeing music that didn't so much obscure the light as it did totally invert it, rendering the whole world black. to then shift so dramatically unfortunately, to me, means that it is not befitting of the swans name, but instead feels more like a more powerful version of the angels of light. thus, I can't help but be of the belief that the swans name was reverted to because of its reputation, and hence has drawn in the dudebros who apathetically profess love for a band whose music I (and I genuinely mean this but hate writing it) cannot resonate with it on a basic level. that is, they don't 'get' it (big call). for example I have a friend with whom I saw swans, and he said "I can't deal with this, why can't they play the nice bits at the end of their songs as opposed to the noisy shit?", ironical considering that THIS IS SWANS, CUNT. it goes far beyond mere descriptors of it being 'dark' and 'heavy', and yet I feel that their current output can for better or worse be reduced to said adjectives, even when much of the time it is indeed much more than that, because of michael gira's almost comical approach to lyrics and vocalisation now. like they've toured with chelsea wolfe and devendra banhart for fuck's sake, are they not the very epitome of a feigned approach to 'dark' music, pure musical theatre? that this mythos around new swans has been constructed seems really absurd to me considering that they are certainly at this point aligned with those kind of acts.

also don't bring fucking needle drop man into this. pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee. he's the problem right there, seriously. that dude kick-started my manhating.

[dead_battery]

guest makes a great point about the 90's era.

as far as im concerned, swans were perhaps the ONLY fucking band to do what i have wanted and expected from the undead corpse that is/was alt/extreme/underground music - which is to unflinchingly document the horror, decay and misery of contemporary life, the amorality and destruction, and to do so from a perspective that doesn't try to ignore it but rather allows us to live through it without having to blind ourselves to it to survive.

and i just dont get why swans are the only band i can think of that did that. it's really a horrible testament to the failures of supposedly alternative culture, when only one person can make music like this. there was nothing nietzschean about it unlike almost all other bands that make dark music. gira was never trying to raise some sort of defiant fist as if to say "look at me surviving and making my own way amidst all this shit! i'm so disgusted so im a hero!".

that era of swans was one lament for the sadness of humanity. a song about a man literally so lonely and fucked up he kills human beings just to be in the company of their dead corpses, while he watches war and death on the tv.

and this murderer asks the corpse of the person he's just killed if he should feel sympathy for the real people who lie dead behind these images of military dominance, then he asks him if he can kiss him.

this is the point where love is exposed as a sick pathology that offers no respite from the horror of the world, and in fact only produces it. and in listening we get to experience a kind of cold release from the despair of this, because the whole sick scene is kind of crooned so that its romanticism and its longing and its darkness all merge together.

the male prostitutes with their desperate need for money and love are killed by someone so utterly twisted by the world he can only come close to tender moments of human connection after he's murdered them.

and then gira brings us out of this specific scene into the perspective of the world itself, "hunger in the desert, missiles in the sky" - the same nexus of need and desperation entangled with violence and power, only now you're no longer fooled that either of these two opposites can exist without the other.

that's when you start to see the horrible truth, which is how even innocence and beauty feed off the most horrendous of realities, of how there's no respite from either.

this is a song in which our entire social pretense is humiliated by a serial killer who is depicted as the only person having any real compassion! our safe position behind the screens is depicted as more dehumanized and disconnected than someone who isn't afraid to confront and even, in a totally fucking obscene way, LOVE the dead bodies which we'd all rather not confront, but which we're all in a way responsible for killing.

this is OUR sociopathy and misery rendered by a true artist and sold back to us. WE live in these societies that wage brutal death from the skies while we sit behind screens as isolated, infantilized units in love with our own disgusting visions of benevolence and happiness. and maybe gira is the guy whose saying - don't you realize how your rage at the dissonance of having the latter image awkwardly confronted with the former is less noble than you think?

i mean, how many other artists can make a serial killer seem like a more loving and compassionate figure than anyone else in the world?

maybe only gira was able to get to this moment where our self revulsion doesn't either turn into frenzied rage at EVERYTHING or morose self pity.

someone operating around the same time doing something similar, and from the same industrial roots, was trent reznor. but reznor stops short of gira and just screams in disgust, or gets sad. what gira is doing is a lot more mature, desire/evil is lamented, but not projected onto some other, like reznor does.

this music gives us a release from having to live up to the impossible standards of our societies vanity, it exposes us as always being closer to victims or murders than we want to think. the human condition is one sick pathology and we're spared the humiliation of having to feel good about it. instead we can despair and as guest says, there is this kind of inverted transcendence where the whole world becomes black when the element of light is introduced to these horrible songs.

again - is there ANYONE else in music who came close to that?