[Pookie]

Originally Posted by knox

by better you mean gramatically correct because they actually have to think about it when learning (ok ill stop nerding up threads)

Yes that is what I meant.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

So said gubernatorial candidate Tim James, who proposes that the state driver's exam should be offered in English only. For the most part, I agree with him. Of course, I love the idea of America as a melting pot. Different races, religions, ideologies, etc. But if you and I live in the same country, and we can't even have a conversation, then what do we have in common? A country should be more than just a geographical territory. If you go to live in a country, and you don't learn the primary language of 90% of its residents (or whatever the number is), then are you really trying to become part of that country's society? Or are you only trying to create your own subculture?

As for the driver's exam, you could make the argument that recently-arrived immigrants need to be able to drive in order get a job and get established, while they learn English, but you could also argue that speaking English should be required to even live here in the first place.

Thoughts? I fully expect to get ridiculed for this, but that's life, isn't it?

do they even speak english in Alabama?

 

america has no lingua franca for a reason. The issue is not should people learn languages, but should they have to, and generally under most federal and state laws the answer is NO. So all these Pharisee legalistic americana tea bagged folks who claim "law and order" in regards to immigration issues are bigots and not respecting the laws of their own country.
in fact, the US federal government recognizes over 240 languages making US the officially most linguisitically diverse nation on earth. In most of Africa people speak five languages just to catch a bus and in Europe most kids go to school in English (which is a foreign language to Swedes and Germans isn't it I could only imagine the american kids having to go to school in French ) , why should americans be so afraid of linguistic diversity?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

why should americans be so afraid of linguistic diversity?

because, as sebastián de covarrubias said when he published the first spanish dictionary (castillian, actually), "language is empire".

spain at the time had all a number of languages and kingdoms that didn't always play well together, part of forging spain as a nation was to make everyone speak the same (castillian) language. not everyone complied, galicians, catalonians and basques managed to retain some of their local languages, but the fascist policy continued up to the times of the monstrous dictator francisco franco who died in the 70s...

since then, the various spanish regions have regained some autonomy but i don't see the country splitting up or anything.

anyway, italy had something similar in the educational system after the country was unified, and pinocchio had something to do with it, i'm told.

ok. so yeah. manifest destiny, kill the indian save the man, all that shit = official language.

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by pbradley

I apologize if you've answered this earlier but what punishments would have in place for those who do not speak English? Deportation?

That's a very good question and, admittedly, I've given a lot more thought to the spirit of an official language than the logistics, which get much more complicated.

To begin with, I think immigration has to be controlled. At face value, it already is, but in reality, not much is done about illegal immigration. Many arguments have been made that America needs more immigrants than we legally allow, and those arguments may have merit. But if that's the case, then I believe we should increase the quotas to appropriate levels, rather than ignore the existing laws.

If immigration were better controlled, then part of the process could be establishing an English education program for those not able to speak English. And if that person does not follow through, then there could be a series of escalating warnings, fines, etc, ultimately leading to deportation after a certain number of offenses.

Also, let me add that I wouldn't recommend this for people already here. They would be "grandfathered" in. And there could be exceptions for people over a certain age, with learning disabilities, etc.

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by knox

i didnt even read this since i dont care

all i wanna say is

official language = assholism

why do you care if people dont wanna be understood by you

they probably have no desire to communicate with other americans, they were probably forced to live there for other personal conditions and situations that have absolutely nothing to do with you.

its not your fucking land, its not your business, you dont have a say nobody gives a shit if that bothers you.

in fact, one aspect of democracy is having to live with things that bother you.

the goverment has more important things to spend its money, way more important than teaching english to people because it bothers people like you

oh so they dont wanna communicate with you BOO HOO


ps - how many languages do you speak?
according to your logic, shouldn't you speak fluent spanish in order to communicate with like half of your country?

If, by "you" and "your," you refer to me, personally, then I agree with you. I am not the dictator of the United States. But if you mean the American people as a whole, then you are wrong. The criteria for immigration to the U.S. IS the business of the American people, and they DO have a say, just as the people of any democratic country have a say in their own immigration policies.

Up to this point, the people have not made English mandatory for immigration. And it may never happen, and if it doesn't, I will respect that 100%. As you say, in a democracy, you have to accept (and abide by) things that bother you. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with them.

Finally, can you elaborate on your point about half of the U.S. speaking Spanish? Where did that number come from?

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ok. so yeah. manifest destiny, kill the indian save the man, all that shit = official language.

The question isn't whether all that shit = official language. The question is whether official language = all that shit (it doesn't). The symmetric property of mathematics doesn't apply here.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

The question isn't whether all that shit = official language. The question is whether official language = all that shit (it doesn't). The symmetric property of mathematics doesn't apply here.

i almost posted "and viceversa" but thought it unnecessary.

so yes, now that it's necessary-- official language = all that shit -- and more

it's always political, never innocent

[knox]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

If, by "you" and "your," you refer to me, personally, then I agree with you. I am not the dictator of the United States. But if you mean the American people as a whole, then you are wrong. The criteria for immigration to the U.S. IS the business of the American people, and they DO have a say, just as the people of any democratic country have a say in their own immigration policies.

Up to this point, the people have not made English mandatory for immigration. And it may never happen, and if it doesn't, I will respect that 100%. As you say, in a democracy, you have to accept (and abide by) things that bother you. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with them.

Finally, can you elaborate on your point about half of the U.S. speaking Spanish? Where did that number come from?

god, you are some sort of fascist aren't you dear?

let me explain to you in case you don't already understand:

there is a reason why 'illegal' immigrants are kept 'illegal'.

[wellcharge]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

If immigration were better controlled, then part of the process could be establishing an English education program for those not able to speak English. And if that person does not follow through, then there could be a series of escalating warnings, fines, etc, ultimately leading to deportation after a certain number of offenses.

seriously mang............they barely deport illegals and you think they should start deporting people because they skipped english class a few times?

just leave people alone and make them pay for document translation or interpreters when they deal with the government, that's what i had to do when i lost my passport and it works fine.....

[knox]

Originally Posted by wellcharge

seriously mang............they barely deport illegals and you think they should start deporting people because they skipped english class a few times?

just leave people alone and make them pay for document translation or interpreters when they deal with the government, that's what i had to do when i lost my passport and it works fine.....

yes please.

btw i really oppose calling people 'illegal'. I really don't see how a human being can be 'illegal'.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

At face value, it already is, but in reality, not much is done about illegal immigration.

who sent you, Steve Poizner?

In the past ten years over a MILLION people have been deported, that is hardly "not much done"

Originally Posted by knox

god, you are some sort of fascist aren't you dear?

let me explain to you in case you don't already understand:

there is a reason why 'illegal' immigrants are kept 'illegal'.

amen amen. this is truly the smartest thing I have ever read on SGY..

[wellcharge]

Originally Posted by knox

yes please.

btw i really oppose calling people 'illegal'. I really don't see how a human being can be 'illegal'.

what do you suggest calling people who's only difference from others is a lack of legal status?

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

That's a very good question and, admittedly, I've given a lot more thought to the spirit of an official language than the logistics, which get much more complicated.

To begin with, I think immigration has to be controlled. At face value, it already is, but in reality, not much is done about illegal immigration. Many arguments have been made that America needs more immigrants than we legally allow, and those arguments may have merit. But if that's the case, then I believe we should increase the quotas to appropriate levels, rather than ignore the existing laws.

If immigration were better controlled, then part of the process could be establishing an English education program for those not able to speak English. And if that person does not follow through, then there could be a series of escalating warnings, fines, etc, ultimately leading to deportation after a certain number of offenses.

Also, let me add that I wouldn't recommend this for people already here. They would be "grandfathered" in. And there could be exceptions for people over a certain age, with learning disabilities, etc.

Aw, I was hoping for 'education' camps.

[knox]

Originally Posted by wellcharge

what do you suggest calling people who's only difference from others is a lack of legal status?

many countries call them 'immigrants in irregular situation'.

'illegal' suggests criminal. someone's mere presence in a given territory cannot be considered criminal activity.

[wellcharge]

Originally Posted by knox

many countries call them 'immigrants in irregular situation'.

'illegal' suggests criminal. someone's mere presence in a given territory cannot be considered criminal activity.

the irregular situation is the lack of legal recognition....


not everything illegal is considered a criminal act, as far as i'm aware(and i'm not a us. lawyer i could be wrong) immigration issues generally fall under civil code and are not always criminal offenses. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...5----000-.html maybe that article of the legal code illuminates that. but as far i know they charge you more for monetary damage to the state than a criminal act. of course i don't think that's how it's seen, when i had border problems they definitely acted like we were terrorists....

anyways being picky about words seems unproductive when serious physical shit is happening at an alarming rate in arizona....do you know about sherriff joe? interestingly enough the problems in arizona are supposedly largely caused by a different breed of migrants "snow birds" in other words rich people from the northern states who spend a few months in arizona to avoid the cold, and decide they have enough invested in the place to vote for people who pass horrific legislations....look at this http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...gration-debate simply looking like a furriner will causeyou problems, with thousands of cops working in phoenix imagine how many times you could be harassed daily(!) and i don't know what happens to you if you left yr document at home before going out but i guess it's likely bad.

i think fussing over what words sound nicer is a politicians game and i don't really give a fuck about it,i talk the way people on the street talk. there was an issue here at one point that multicultural might be offensive and diasporic community is more inclusive, and i think only upper class white people cared.

maybe you don't as much exposure to united states media, but if were going to fuss over what people say i'd be more worried about the news exagerrating facts, or constantly repeating the "fact" that no one is bothered by illegal immigrants more than legal immigrants, maybe that's true in some survey they did of five douchebags who paid the DMV $200 for an english sounding name, but personally i've never encountered anyone(among furrners obviously) who cares how you came, and the tv stations spouting that shit here in cowtown certainly never asked my opinion.

my mother and i getting into the current country was a close call and if we had to do it the hard way i wouldn't be ashamed of the illegal title, it denotes a person who bypassed the law that separates the world with man made lines, that's not something to be ashamed of

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by knox

let me explain to you in case you don't already understand:

there is a reason why 'illegal' immigrants are kept 'illegal'.

Can you please explain what that has to do with whether English should be an official language in the U.S.?

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

who sent you, Steve Poizner?

In the past ten years over a MILLION people have been deported, that is hardly "not much done"

So, that's 100,000 people each year, out of an estimated 8 to 10 million? That's as low as 1%. And I'm skeptical of it even being that many. Does that include people who were caught at or near the border and immediately sent back?

[wellcharge]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

Can you please explain what that has to do with whether English should be an official language in the U.S.?

 

[wellcharge]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

So, that's 100,000 people each year, out of an estimated 8 to 10 million? That's as low as 1%. And I'm skeptical of it even being that many. Does that include people who were caught at or near the border and immediately sent back?

...........

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

Can you please explain what that has to do with whether English should be an official language in the U.S.?

[knox]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

So, that's 100,000 people each year, out of an estimated 8 to 10 million? That's as low as 1%. And I'm skeptical of it even being that many. Does that include people who were caught at or near the border and immediately sent back?

what is wrong with you?

wellcharge - calling someone 'illegal' does not seem right TO ME because it sounds like a discriminatory exaggeration.