[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

What I do admit is being drunk and making use of my usual bitchy self when I complained about it - which still doesn't justify the response. But I don't think the response would have been different if I had been all nice and fragile in my complaint.

so other people have to put up with your alcoholic bitchy self but you can't put up with other things that displease you because you represent women.

high-class troll.

you don't even consider the notion that your outrage might have looked insane and you claim that in no case you had to be "nice and fragile"-- straw person argument.

there's such a thing as being clear and direct and assertive without acting like a deranged drunk and not even apologizing for it. especially with people you claim to "respect".

if you had asked decently "hey, could you please take down those [stinking rotten teeth] [pictures of a gorgeous woman] [tumors]? they are disturbing", you could have gotten a different answer, like "sure ok sorry". but if you try to push people as if they are misbehaving 10 year olds, you're going to get pushed back.

see, if this was real life, i would have smelled the stench on your breath and seen your red eyes and noticed your slurry speech and i would have responded to you the way one responds to drunk people-- you humor them and don't take them seriously. but instead not only did i take your words seriously, but you also keep taking them seriously.

now we have you rationalizing your behavior on grounds of gender equality, and starting posts to ask if the internet is "real".

the issue is not whether we should post certain pictures or not-- the issue is that you went on an irrational drunken rant with me and expected what-- submission? hilarious. if you want to be treated politely, you should treat others the same way.

the internet is sure real. it's real enough for you to get drunk in front of it every night and expect that people tiptoe around you.

high-class troll.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

No, you are right. If you went to the extents of sending a pm explaining yr feelings and were just basically ignored that is not the way to treat someone and it does reflect on how they treat women in real life.

she did no such thing.

she sent a bunch of patronizing drivel.

i've had civilized discussions with the high-class troll, but i've learned that it's useless to discuss things with profesional victims who don't own up to their own bullshit.

[Rob Instigator]

Re: the past 3-4 pages of this thread

I have been on the net since 1991-92.
Nothing changes.
there will always be people who either choose to just share their most juvenile thoughts, or are just plain juveniles, whether of age or of mind.

Part of the "anonimity" of the net is that no one knows how old you are, or what gender you are, or what ethnicity you are, etc.

This leads to a lot of words being typed without thought as to whom they may annoy/disgust/insult, because there is NO WAY to know who your audience is gonna be on any given forum.

This can either be addresssed by never typing or posting anything that may be offensive in the slightest, OR, by posting anything and everything you wish to, letting people deal with their own issues, whether they are offended or not.

It is an individual's medium, which somehow coalesces into a collective medium.

to expect that the SYG forum is gonna somehow reflect the individual personal politics of Sonic Youth is preposterous. SY do not post here (aside from lee and Steve occassionally checking in). They do not moderate here.
I think the fact that anyone can post anything at any time is much more indicative and representative of Sonic Youth's personal politics than whether or not they would be upset at naked ladies, or some poster being mysoginist.

and while that pic of Monica Belucci is risque', it is not anything that would get even a blur on prime time network TV, or even a PG-13 rating on a film.


I hnoestly think the reason it is seemingly imbalanced on the SYG Forum between men and women is that men are typically the more obsessive gender when it comes to their recreations, their pasttimes.
Music is a pasttime, and in the flesh and blood world, it is about the same ration as here.
There arejust that many more men and young men talking about music and playing music and endelssly poring over the minutia of music than there are women. It's not a sexist thing. It is what it is.


There are way more women than men in the world out buying craft supplies, and frequenting the Hobby Lobby forums, but that does not amke it sexist, nor is there any reason to question why that is so.

[SONIC GAIL]

I'm not takin sides here cause I don't know the whole story and I do like you both. But I don't like all the naked pics and ignorant sexual remarks.in fact I just experienced an asshole yelling some shit at me out of his car while I was having my smoke break.

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

so other people have to put up with your alcoholic bitchy self but you can't put up with other things that displease you because you represent women.

high-class troll.

you don't even consider the notion that your outrage might have looked insane and you claim that in no case you had to be "nice and fragile"-- straw person argument.

there's such a thing as being clear and direct and assertive without acting like a deranged drunk and not even apologizing for it. especially with people you claim to "respect".

if you had asked decently "hey, could you please take down those [stinking rotten teeth] [pictures of a gorgeous woman] [tumors]? they are disturbing", you could have gotten a different answer, like "sure ok sorry". but if you try to push people as if they are misbehaving 10 year olds, you're going to get pushed back.

see, if this was real life, i would have smelled the stench on your breath and seen your red eyes and noticed your slurry speech and i would have responded to you the way one responds to drunk people-- you humor them and don't take them seriously. but instead not only did i take your words seriously, but you also keep taking them seriously.

now we have you rationalizing your behavior on grounds of gender equality, and starting posts to ask if the internet is "real".

the issue is not whether we should post certain pictures or not-- the issue is that you went on an irrational drunken rant with me and expected what-- submission? hilarious. if you want to be treated politely, you should treat others the same way.

the internet is sure real. it's real enough for you to get drunk in front of it every night and expect that people tiptoe around you.

high-class troll.

I don't understand why this is relevant. I had asked nicely before, and you all said yes. Why would I have to ask again and again?

It had all been discussed before. I wasn't angry at the photo, I was angry at how quickly you could dismiss everything that was previously discussed in another thread.

And by the way, I don't get drunk every night and I'm not an alcoholic, so you're just making up stuff to insult me in some way. Although I do admit not being nice about it, like I said it doesn't justify your reaction. Because in some way, I was entitled to be upset - our request was ignored and that's the reason why my tone was angry not because I had a couple of beers. I was upset because the requests from women on this forum were disrespected.

And since then I've tried on this thread and pm's to once again have a respectful debate about it, the response is you calling me a troll or implying I have not right to say anything.

This isn't about me or how bitchy/rude I am. This is about you and how much you're willing to respect women on this board, not ME.

That I'm a bitchy cunt - that is established.
But on the other hand, the depths of your deeply ingrained sexism are only beginning to surface.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Have you read Kim Gordon's tales about the summer Sonic Youth spent opening up for Neil Young and Crazy Horse?
she was dumbfounded by how overtly sexist and macho and mysoginistic the road crews and stage crews were, becasuse they were the same crews that had worked neil young's tours since the 70's, and they still carried that old "boys club" mentality.

No, link?

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

she did no such thing.

she sent a bunch of patronizing drivel.

i've had civilized discussions with the high-class troll, but i've learned that it's useless to discuss things with profesional victims who don't own up to their own bullshit.

you're taking it very personally, being disrespectful towards me and insulting me, which is very unfair.

fair enough, but that doesn't explain what you feel about it and why you were the first one to ignore an agreement you said yourself (along with everyone else) to find reasonable.

you're talking as if you did something disrespectful towards ME and this is a personal argument, but the truth is I wasn't the only one to request that, so it wasn't me you disrespected but all women on the board and something you said yourself to be in agreement with.

this is the part i don't get - you ignore that previous agreement and somehow that is MY fault for not being nice enough? How could it be when that happened BEFORE I was rude?

Me not being NICE does not mean that I am not RIGHT. Also, you response was disproportional, I couldn't have been just as bad to justify all this shit I've been taking from you.And honestly, saying please take that down would have incited the same ridicule from you, I've had it before.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Re: the past 3-4 pages of this thread

I have been on the net since 1991-92.
Nothing changes.
there will always be people who either choose to just share their most juvenile thoughts, or are just plain juveniles, whether of age or of mind.

Part of the "anonimity" of the net is that no one knows how old you are, or what gender you are, or what ethnicity you are, etc.

This leads to a lot of words being typed without thought as to whom they may annoy/disgust/insult, because there is NO WAY to know who your audience is gonna be on any given forum.

This can either be addresssed by never typing or posting anything that may be offensive in the slightest, OR, by posting anything and everything you wish to, letting people deal with their own issues, whether they are offended or not.

It is an individual's medium, which somehow coalesces into a collective medium.

to expect that the SYG forum is gonna somehow reflect the individual personal politics of Sonic Youth is preposterous. SY do not post here (aside from lee and Steve occassionally checking in). They do not moderate here.
I think the fact that anyone can post anything at any time is much more indicative and representative of Sonic Youth's personal politics than whether or not they would be upset at naked ladies, or some poster being mysoginist.

and while that pic of Monica Belucci is risque', it is not anything that would get even a blur on prime time network TV, or even a PG-13 rating on a film.


I hnoestly think the reason it is seemingly imbalanced on the SYG Forum between men and women is that men are typically the more obsessive gender when it comes to their recreations, their pasttimes.
Music is a pasttime, and in the flesh and blood world, it is about the same ration as here.
There arejust that many more men and young men talking about music and playing music and endelssly poring over the minutia of music than there are women. It's not a sexist thing. It is what it is.


There are way more women than men in the world out buying craft supplies, and frequenting the Hobby Lobby forums, but that does not amke it sexist, nor is there any reason to question why that is so.

No Rob, it isn't what it is. It's sexism.

I can't even believe you're saying this, what are you trying to say that women are NATURALLY less inclined to like music? Think about what you're saying:

There are less black people in high-paid jobs and more in crime. It isn't what it is - it's racism.

If can't even apply your logic there without sounding awful can I?

Your reasoning does not explain why women have been LEAVING. They clearly have an interest in posting here, but somehow are driven away. You're not listening to what I'm saying, to what Sonic Gail is saying, like our opinions don't matter and if they end up leaving you'll just say: it is what it is?

They wanna be here, they wanna post, they wanna play music and discuss music but you make the whole environment very hostile for them - like you said yourself Kim Gordon pointed out about that tour.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

No, link?

let me look. She said it was like being in a time warp, like being at a Van Halen tour in 1978. roadies picking out "choice" skanks for sex, extremely mysoginistic barbs delieverd towards Kim Gordon off hand, just all sorts of the stereotypical "construction worker" type leering and bawdy put downs of women.

I will try to find a linkkkk

[knox]

I don't know, Rob. I get kind of dizzy seeing you post what you just did, then compared to what you said before, such a contradiction.

What gets me so sad is to think that in the end everything that's been said by some men here clearly says:

"We're not bothered if we're only surrounded by other men and perhaps photos of naked strangers matter more to us than you (real women) posting here".

I refuse to believe that's the truth and maybe that's the reason why I'm still posting. Maybe other women noticed that and decided to stop facing that. I'm not an anonymous stranger - people know my name, my music, my face, I've even met some people here. But the right to post pornography and "jizz all over her face" is more important than making me feel welcome.

Getting fucking soppy now.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

No Rob, it isn't what it is. It's sexism.

I can't even believe you're saying this, what are you trying to say that women are NATURALLY less inclined to like music? Think about what you're saying:

.

I said what I said knox.

there are, indiputably, more males OBSESSEd with music, in all it's many guises and forms, than there are women. If you do not agree then maybe your experience is different.
By obsesssed I mean that all they talk about is music, all they do is argue music, who is good who is bad, which records suck, etc.
that is what it IS. it is not sexist. It is what it is.

Liek I mentioned, there are more women than men doing handicrafts, and most of the media for that hobby (magazines, websites, TV shows) are aimed at women. that is not sexist against men. It just reflects the way the world is today.

Now, the REASONS why more men than women get obsessive about music fandom (or any other kind of fandom) can be debated endlessly, and may very well be due to societal sexist restrictions, but it may also not be.

It may just be that many women think being that obsessive about a pasttime is stupid.

we cannot know for sure.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

I don't know, Rob. I get kind of dizzy seeing you post what you just did, then compared to what you said before, such a contradiction.

You got sexism on the brain.
I was pointing out FACT. there are more fanboys of Sonic Youth than there are fangirls. There are more noise rock male fans than there are noise rock female fans.


At the Lady gaga concert I took my lady to there were maybe 3/4 women, and 1/4 men (maybe less actually). Gaga has many male fans undoubtedly, but they were not crazed with love and paying $150 a ticket to see her act. That is not sexist to see that more women are ready to shell hard earned money for Gaga than men. It just IS.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I said what I said knox.

there are, indiputably, more males OBSESSEd with music, in all it's many guises and forms, than there are women. If you do not agree then maybe your experience is different.
By obsesssed I mean that all they talk about is music, all they do is argue music, who is good who is bad, which records suck, etc.
that is what it IS. it is not sexist. It is what it is.

Liek I mentioned, there are more women than men doing handicrafts, and most of the media for that hobby (magazines, websites, TV shows) are aimed at women. that is not sexist against men. It just reflects the way the world is today.

Now, the REASONS why more men than women get obsessive about music fandom (or any other kind of fandom) can be debated endlessly, and may very well be due to societal sexist restrictions, but it may also not be.

It may just be that many women think being that obsessive about a pasttime is stupid.

we cannot know for sure.

Well, if you were me and you had the experiences I had trying to be in bands and be a musician and all you'd know FOR SURE the reasons why men are the majority. It's pure blatant sexism. It's pure societal sexist restrictions - like you said. I had to put up with a lot of shit while I watched many women not being able to do so.

You had no idea what a girl's parents and school and all that do to her when she says I want a guitar or I want to buy some drums. They will say why not the violin instead dear???? If you want a hobbie go horse riding. The teachers and counselors find your attachment to aggressive music worrying and not lady-like (they are worried that you might be a dyke). Hanging out with boys? dangerous.

Have you ever been to metal gigs? They will give flyers to everyone except the ladies. It must have been why I ended up with the anarchist punk people - they told me girls could do anything and encouraged it.

Try to be a 14 year old girl and discuss music with the boys - they won't let you in, it's like their ow replacement for sports or collecting cars or something and do not fucking commit the SIN of knowing more music than they do - it's too threatening and they'll shut you out.

If you don't take that well and continue to challenge them - they will call you a whore, a slut, they will say you're just into music because you're interested in the men who are, they simply do not appreciate women trying to get into their territory.

And just like what happened here - if you get drunk once, you're suddenly an alcoholic drunken bitch.

So, yeah most of my friends have been male because I've been into the music thing since always. But when they get drunk and angry - they're misunderstood genius. When a woman gets drunk and angry she's a slut. When they play something simple - they're being innovative. When a woman does - that's because she's unable to play an instrument properly etc.

But it's the same with most things - literature, art, business, science.

Music isn't a past time and I'm not obsessive. Perhaps you're trying to say women don't wanna focus on the most technical aspect of guitars and etc, and that hasn't been the tradition and it's usually not their approach - but a lot of men aren't interested in that either but end up being caught up.

There are women interested in posting here tho, so you can't ignore what I've been saying, what Sonic Gail is saying: there were women here (even if a minority) and they have been vanishing and there is a reason for that.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

You got sexism on the brain.
I was pointing out FACT. there are more fanboys of Sonic Youth than there are fangirls. There are more noise rock male fans than there are noise rock female fans. - WHY?


At the Lady gaga concert I took my lady to there were maybe 3/4 women, and 1/4 men (maybe less actually). Gaga has many male fans undoubtedly, but they were not crazed with love and paying $150 a ticket to see her act. That is not sexist to see that more women are ready to shell hard earned money for Gaga than men. It just IS.

And don't tell me hormones.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

And don't tell me hormones.

I do not know the answer.

Maybe it is the same answer to this question.

"Why do more women than men like Sade?"

two sides to the same coin.
who knows why?
it just IS.

I completely agree that your experience trying to be in bands and be a fan is sadly quite typical for many women in the same situation.

I can tell you one thing.

For almost every single MAN that ever plays an instrument and tries to join or be in a band, one of the main impetus is to MEET GIRLS.

I assume that impetus does not exist in women. Young women/girls do not dream of joining bands so they can get MEN. Dig?

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

You got sexism on the brain.
I was pointing out FACT. there are more fanboys of Sonic Youth than there are fangirls. There are more noise rock male fans than there are noise rock female fans.

I think there's definitely a lot more men that get obsessive; but that by no means means that women don't do it too. And this forum has had more women in the past - I think that's the question that knox is asking. It's not that she's enormously bothered by tits (except for a mild distaste, which I share) it's that it's representative of the cliqueness of this forum and the increasingly sausage-centrism to it. Well, I'm not speaking for her, but that's kind of my thoughts on the affair. Unfortunately, I could definitely see that I'm more likely to contribute to the cliquey side of things than not, from the outsiders perspective.

There's someone who doesn't post on SYG very much (only in the music section) who's far more obsessive about music than anyone else I think I've ever met. I know her 'IRL'. It really wouldn't surprise me if she doesn't post here because it is such a sausage fest.

[Rob Instigator]

oh, and whether one finds it pathetic or sexist or not, by "meet girls" most of those band/rock hopefuls (ussually around 13-18 yrs old when the begin to try to rock) mean they want to meet girls to FUCK, not to have nice conversations and relationships with.

There may lie the seeds of the omnipresent sexism in popular music/rock n roll.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

For almost every single MAN that ever plays an instrument and tries to join or be in a band, one of the main impetus is to MEET GIRLS.

I assume that impetus does not exist in women. Young women/girls do not dream of joining bands so they can get MEN. Dig?

I get the impression you don't know many female musicians. Women aren't some alien creature - they're just as capable of making turgid, lifeless music in the deluded belief that they might get some cock out of it. The problem is that they usually become politicised, whether they want to or not, by the sausage-fest.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Glice

I think there's definitely a lot more men that get obsessive; but that by no means means that women don't do it too. And this forum has had more women in the past - I think that's the question that knox is asking. It's not that she's enormously bothered by tits (except for a mild distaste, which I share) it's that it's representative of the cliqueness of this forum and the increasingly sausage-centrism to it. Well, I'm not speaking for her, but that's kind of my thoughts on the affair. Unfortunately, I could definitely see that I'm more likely to contribute to the cliquey side of things than not, from the outsiders perspective..

Of course Glice. it is not only males that get that way, but go to a comic book convention. mostly obsessed males. Go to a vinyl record convention. Mostly obsessed males. Same for punk rock shows, star trek, whatever.
Sure there are women equally if not more obsessed and fangirl like the fanboys, but the difference in ratio cannot be due to only sexism.

It is not sexism that the fangeeks of Sex & The City are mainly women . That is not sexist against men.

[knox]

I understand. And that's why they're so willing to protect it - if women can do it then why would women be impressed with my amazing solo skills?

But I thought that was for 16 year old boys. Just like men can't go around saying they love Sade without being made fun of.

Well, I don't wanna perpetuate this whole men play guitar women wanna be groupies thing, do you? I'd like things to be different.

So I guess what you're saying is that you're resigned and you don't care if it remains this way forever.

But a lot of women took a lot of shit to change things and managed to do it, and I don't want girls in the future having it as hard as I did, so why should I just resign and accept it? why should you?