[FreshChops]

also, in all honesty, don't you think that criminals, thugs and drug dealers will still have guns... obtained illegally no matter what? So now you've disarmed the law abiding citizens while criminal, who don't legally own their guns anyway will remain armed?

[knox]

yes, they will. like they do in most countries.
and still, less people get killed than in the us.

most people are killed by their loved ones, someone they know and themselves.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

also, in all honesty, don't you think that criminals, thugs and drug dealers will still have guns... obtained illegally no matter what? So now you've disarmed the law abiding citizens while criminal, who don't legally own their guns anyway will remain armed?

Very good point. If guns are banned, only criminals will carry them. Criminals and decent people (whatever that means....) that don't mind breaking the law.

[radarmaker]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Simple

If the UK's population is the same as the US, the murder rate in the UK would be 8.5/100,000 people. It proves strict gun laws don't work.

Wrong. And I'm not talking about the relative merits of gun control on either side of the Atlantic.
You are completely and utterly failing to grasp the fundamental concept of a comparative ratio.

[Glice]

I think by 'completely and utterly' you mean 'deliberately and for personal amusement'.

[radarmaker]

I honestly hope so.

[Glice]

Speaking of comparative ratios though, did you know that as few as one in ten people object to gang rape?










[sorry]

[EVOLghost]

why is this thread still going.

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by knox

most people are killed by their loved ones, someone they know and themselves.

this is relevant too, but ultimately, I'd like to take that into consideration and determine for myself if I want to own a gun or not.... ya' know, the whole principle this country was established by?

I can ball you're whole argument up to "I personally know little about guns, I have no experience with guns, but I can do a google fact check on them and because I'm uncomfortable with guns, I sure would be a lot more comfortable if nobody else had guns." You'd be objecting you're will for your own piece of mind on others, it goes completely against what this country has the potential to not be.

[knox]

The problem is if YOU (or anyone) has the right to own a gun that could potentially hurt ME (or anyone).

The idea that most citizens are sane and balanced enough to have that power in their hands is insane and irresponsible, reason why the US has the highest murder rate in the industrialised world, and the vast majority of them aren't people defending themselves, but people killing each other for stupid reasons.

Reason why they do it? Because they can.

[ann ashtray]

I can see that being a problem, yes...

But at the same time, being not allowed to own a gun could effect me (taken I owned one).

The world isn't about any given individual, nor should it be. Shit, it isn't really even about our rights.

This is one of those things, when I break it down, I can see how anyone on any side of the fence has a good point. I just happen to be standing closer to one side than the other in my personal beliefs...that again, really don't matter too much.

[SONIC GAIL]

Hey... we had this fight before and I am seein some crazy shit. I was at a business lunch at a restaraunt on a golf course in Orlando, Fl about a month ago. I look out the window at some dumb ass HICK has a rifle at the table with him tags on it and all. WTF?????????? Everyone was just staring at him all freaked out lookin. It is not legal to do that in FL. THere are actually pretty strict guidelines for fire arm holders in this state.I was speaking on behalf of gun owners before, but somehow I failed to remember how fucking stupid most of them are. So to be clear, I think it is ok to have a shot gun or rifle AT YOUR HOME or the hunting club (not on your person) for purposes of protection (mostly animals) and hunting for food. THere is no need for people to own automatic weapons or for guns to just be handed out to any fool who comes along ready to buy one.

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by knox

The problem is if YOU (or anyone) has the right to own a gun that could potentially hurt ME (or anyone).

The idea that most citizens are sane and balanced enough to have that power in their hands is insane and irresponsible, reason why the US has the highest murder rate in the industrialised world, and the vast majority of them aren't people defending themselves, but people killing each other for stupid reasons.

Reason why they do it? Because they can.

have you ever personally been threatened by the presence of a gun or are you just shivering from reading google facts? how has guns affected your life?

The whole "but citizens aren't sane and balanced enough to possess guns" is going nowhere. that can be said for anything. I have to drive roads with these very people. We're all sold cars that can get up over 100 MPH, anyone can buy lighters and matches, I can buy rat poison... all of these potentially deadly items that are routinely trusted in hands of americans daily. How does it make you sound to just say.... "I think americans don't posses the sanity to handle firearms, therefore I don't want anyone to have them"? That sounds like a high-schooler's angst. Where do you draw the line? How do you feel about cross-bows? bows & arrows? slingshots?

You love to flaunt the "highest murder rate in the world" stat but you failed to address the aforementioned factors of drug epidemics, poverty, unemployment rates population densities and other factors as the root of the murder stats. If you're shallow enough to just overlook all of those factors in contrast to other industrialized countries, you're issues with guns (as you see them being the culprit) is just a jaded and convenient cop-out to the true factors behind your numbers.

[ann ashtray]

Some bunny just got repped.

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

regardless of what anyone tries to spin, an armed citizenry SCARES the powers that be, and the people that wish to retain that power in the hands of a few.

no one talks about this stuff because it is easier to scare people by detailing the relatively few instances where people are hurt by guns or killed accidentally etc.

The USA is a violent, still-young nation, and most of the murders occur not because there is a gun handy, but because some idiot decides to kill someone.

taking away guns to protect people is like taking away condoms to keep people from having sex.

rob said it all right there!

[knox]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

have you ever personally been threatened by the presence of a gun or are you just shivering from reading google facts? how has guns affected your life?

The whole "but citizens aren't sane and balanced enough to possess guns" is going nowhere. that can be said for anything. I have to drive roads with these very people. We're all sold cars that can get up over 100 MPH, anyone can buy lighters and matches, I can buy rat poison... all of these potentially deadly items that are routinely trusted in hands of americans daily. How does it make you sound to just say.... "I think americans don't posses the sanity to handle firearms, therefore I don't want anyone to have them"? That sounds like a high-schooler's angst. Where do you draw the line? How do you feel about cross-bows? bows & arrows? slingshots?

You love to flaunt the "highest murder rate in the world" stat but you failed to address the aforementioned factors of drug epidemics, poverty, unemployment rates population densities and other factors as the root of the murder stats. If you're shallow enough to just overlook all of those factors in contrast to other industrialized countries, you're issues with guns (as you see them being the culprit) is just a jaded and convenient cop-out to the true factors behind your numbers.

To answer your question, yes I have. I'm entirely sure that I would be dead now if I carried a gun and attempted to do anything, the same goes to a lot of people I know. That wasn't ONE ocasion, I live in a very violent place where such things are sadly common (not so much now as they were before but still). Every fucking time I've heard of a citizen trying to defend himself from a thief with a gun I heard he got shot. In fact, they will often shoot you if they THINK you might be reaching for a gun. Criminals have somethings we don't have: the element of surprise, utter desperation, practice with guns and the lack of fear to shoot.

Most of the time, they don't break into people house's to kill them, that's far from the most common type of crime. Most of the time they don't want to kill you - they want your money, jewerly, car. You're much safer giving them what they want. Now, if they think you might shoot, no doubt they will do it first. You are never expecting it.

I think there is something more sordid about not being in poverty, starvation, epidemics and war and still having high murder rates.

In fact, I think there is something sordid about trying to say: more people die of starvation, and that is supposed to make these murder rates acceptable.

Delusion.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

I have had this chat here before.

There is always a rebuttal by ignorant people who say, "if you take away the guns from good people, then only the criminals will have them."

SUUURRREEE thing there buddy.

where do these idiots think criminals get guns? They don't have manufacturing plants, they STEAL them by the PALLET from perfectly legitimate sources. Crooked gun dealers further sell them off to cartels, gangsters and gun runners and label them as "stolen" or "lost" (there are officially 30,000 LOST guns reported by dealers to the ATF every year!!)

LA has proven it, NO GUN SHOPS=NO GUNS, either street or otherwise.

Criminals get their guns from the same places normal people do, and if you want to take away the guns from the criminals, unfortunately you have to take them away from the normal people to.

I won't argue it, it is simply reality. I don't need to argue it, that is what California has done,and newsflash gun nuts, that shit is working. Gun violence is down EVERY year and I am thankful, cuz we got enough of that shit as it is

The UK is the perfect example, relatively no guns to speak of and what is their major problem? Knife fights and stabbings!!!

The UK homicide rate is TEN TIMES lower than just the CITY of los angeles, let alone this gun ravaged country...

[ann ashtray]

WTFFTW.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

ATF reported that in 2007 it found 30,000 guns missing from dealer inventories based on its inspection of just 9.3% of gun dealers.

[ann ashtray]

OK, this is going to sound like a stupid question...I get it...but honesty, how do you perceive things to be different if guns were suddenly unavailable to the general public?