[jon boy]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

 

that's a fair and reasoned argument.

[Trama]

Some really idiotic arguments ITT, hopefully you are joking, bytor.

I'm for the individual right of gun possession, but the access and namely the calibers and typology should be regulated. It is a way of protecting gun owners themselves.

There are other ways to grant people access to military grade weapons. Private possession of said weapons is not the best option imo.

Also, I think society should strive to make them less necessary, not the other way.

[Rob Instigator]

No one has access to military grade weapons people, except for Ted Nugent.

[Trama]

What about the dude from FPS Russia?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSp7CipN1pw

so jelly

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Trama

I'm for the individual right of gun possession, but the access and namely the calibers and typology should be regulated. It is a way of protecting gun owners themselves.

calibers are already regulated. anything above .50 caliber is considered a destructive device and illegal outside of military use.

typology: automatic weapons (machine guns) are NOT accessible to the public. they are not illegal strictly speaking, but they are so highly regulated and expensive to own, people can't go into a store and walk away with one.

any and all weapons are/have been "military" at some point, including the measly .22LR which can make for an effective sniper rifle. look, ma! i have a sniper rifle!

Originally Posted by Trama

There other ways to grant people access to military grade weapons. Private possession of said weapons is not the best option imo.

a so-called "assault rifle" is simply a semiautomatic rifle like the kind people use for hunting. semi-auto loading is a 100-year-old technology. it is NOT a machine-gun. it is one trigger-pull per bullet, just like a revolver.

look at this video-- a bit old but pretty excellent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

the "nato" caliber is actually less powerful and has less recoil and has a smaller round than the extensively popular .30-06 used by deer hunters-- which is why it's good for home defense-- it is more controllable, and has less penetration when it hits a wall (less even than many handguns).

one person's "assault rifle" is another person's "home defense carbine"-- easy to aim, easy to handle in close quarters, endowed with sufficient stopping power, and safer than a hunting rifle or a shotgun.

Originally Posted by Trama

Also, I think society should strive to make them less necessary, not the other way.

this-- yes. everyone, including gun owners, agrees with that.
but this is exactly the problem-- banning guns for their looks or made-up names or magazine sizes does not make guns less necessary.

[Rob Instigator]

especially when nearly 80% of gun deaths result from handguns/pistols NOT machine guns, or "assault" rifles.

[Trama]

!@#$%!

I understand that, and I'm sure there's a fair amount of mislabeling in the media.

High-capacity detachable magazines, would you consider that a military style feature or do you not?

Certainly you agree that they play a difference in the event of a mass shooting?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

calibers are already regulated. anything above .50 caliber is considered a destructive device and illegal outside of military use.

typology: automatic weapons (machine guns) are NOT accessible to the public. they are not illegal strictly speaking, but they are so highly regulated and expensive to own, people can't go into a store and walk away with one.

any and all weapons are/have been "military" at some point, including the measly .22LR which can make for an effective sniper rifle. look, ma! i have a sniper rifle!


a so-called "assault rifle" is simply a semiautomatic rifle like the kind people use for hunting. semi-auto loading is a 100-year-old technology. it is NOT a machine-gun. it is one trigger-pull per bullet, just like a revolver.

look at this video-- a bit old but pretty excellent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

the "nato" caliber is actually less powerful and has less recoil and has a smaller round than the extensively popular .30-06 used by deer hunters-- which is why it's good for home defense-- it is more controllable, and has less penetration when it hits a wall (less even than many handguns).

one person's "assault rifle" is another person's "home defense carbine"-- easy to aim, easy to handle in close quarters, endowed with sufficient stopping power, and safer than a hunting rifle or a shotgun.


this-- yes. everyone, including gun owners, agrees with that.
but this is exactly the problem-- banning guns for their looks or made-up names or magazine sizes does not make guns less necessary.

Bullshit. Assault-style weapons such as the Bushmaster and other carbine rifles can be readily modified with a few simple parts to go full auto. Where do you think gangsters in Chi-town or South Central get these things? By the way, the assault weapons ban worked. Machine gun and high-caliber riffle consfications by law enforcement as well as crimes committed by all declined every year here in California after 1994. Further, out state-wide bans on copy-cat rifles like the SKS also worked miracles. When I was a kid, you'd hear of machine gun killings at least monthly. Its a rarity these days that stands out noticeably.

Further, is it some kind of coincidence that the majority of mass shootings, workplace shootings, and random killings have involved the Bushmaster, a rifle which was previously banned from 1994-2004? No. Since 2005 the number of shootings with these rifles has sky-rocketed. Clearly the ban was working.

There is no place in hunting for weapons designed for combat. Just because they are slightly modified for public use, doesn't negate the reality that such weapons are not designed for personal defense, but forward combat operations.

I support banning these weapons, banning extended magazines, banning such high-power ammunition, and of course ending ALL background check loopholes. Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country. Why does it still have one of the highest gun crime rates? Because Michigan, Wisconsin, and even Illinois in general have lax laws in comparison, and guns flood into town. Here in LA we have a similar problem with Nevada and Arizona, but the sheer size and scale of California geography helps curb the effect some, plus California's own state-wide laws are fairly strong and strongly enforced.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Trama

!@#$%!

I understand that, and I'm sure there's a fair amount of mislabeling in the media, I'm not defending them.

High-capacity detachable magazines, would you consider that a military style feature or do you not?

Certainly you agree that they play a difference in the event of a mass shooting?

using a 30-round magazine (potentially illegal) is not much different than using three 10-round magazines (unaffected by the proposed law) though it confers an advantage in a gunfight-- e.g. 3 armed intruders vs. you, it's the difference between 3 or 10 bullets for each intruder before you take a second or two to swap magazines.

i just googled "home invasion" and this came at top-- "trio suspected..." etc. i had just made up the number 3 but there you go.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-cou...nvasion-appear

these fuckers act in groups.

the mass shootings from the news aren't gunfights though-- and therefore the size of the magazine makes little difference there. these victims are generally unarmed people in "gun free zones" so changing magazines makes little difference because nobody can return fire to the shooter. it's like they say "shooting fish in a barrel".

which is why i think this is a waste of time and political capital from the democrats-- i voted for them and supported them with work and money, but i heard nothing about guns in the campaign.

10 rounds, 30 rounds, molotov cocktails, fertilizer trucks-- killers will kill with whatever they can.

i'd much rather we were focusing on rebuilding infrastructure and improving education and health care, which have a much greater chance to reduce social violence than randomly slapping at the symptoms with hysterical reactions.

now, i do agree 100% with universal background checks and penalizing straw purchases (that's when you buy a gun for someone who can't buy it themselves), and i'm for mandatory safety training even though people say "a right shouldn't be licensed" & so forth (still, felons are deprived from the right to vote in many states, and there are limits to free speech, etc).

ultimately gun control is about risk/reward for the individual and for society. and some times what's good for the individual is not good for society and viceversa, but the thing is that, in the u.s., minority and individual rights are traditionally more respected vs. society at large-- other countries have a tradition of more centralized control which is why people are more willing to accept government control, etc. plus there is a long tradition of guns that goes back to the first settlers (whereas in europe only nobles were allowed to carry weapons).

additionally, the media overlooks the benefit, and only looks at the cost, and it's hard to get real actionable data. nobody reports on "5 rapes and 12 robberies prevented by guns today" because it doesn't get high ratings on tv.

edit: but look at this for example: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-says-yes.html (she's against home defense carbines though)

the reason i have come around to this side of the issue (i used to be heavily anti-gun) is because in this debate, when you remove the hysteria and paranoia on both sides (both sides have their fools and lunatics), the pro-gun people have made better rational arguments to me than the anti-gun people.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Where do you think gangsters in Chi-town or South Central get these things?

aren't there already 1000 laws banning what these gangsters do in the first place?

the law only restrains law-abiding people.

[Trama]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

the mass shootings from the news aren't gunfights though-- and therefore the size of the magazine makes little difference there. these victims are generally unarmed people in "gun free zones" so changing magazines makes little difference because nobody can return fire to the shooter.

I disagree with that. Armed or not it creates a chance to attack the shooter.
Wasn't that how they stopped Giffords' shooter?

And I'm with you, I'm for individual freedom, but I think in this case (due to the sheer weight of the problem in the US) some compromise has to be made.

Of course gun legislation is only part of the problem, and as an outsider I do see that there's a lot noise surrounding this debate, certainly working in the interest of some.

One curious thing about the media is how you often hear them criticizing the videogame industry, but you never hear a word about Hollywood.

[gast30]

now today i heard that most of the shootings in us happens by people under influencial of anti-depresiva

the reaction comes from the idea of obama to have more mental health cheks for students

when these students/childeren are targeted they have to take anti-depressiva
wich gives only more chance for these kinds of shootings


it is not the school or the country that has to put his nose in the ass of childeren, no regime that massa manipulates it's population
the parents are head responsible for their child to live peacefull with all other humans

the parents are goddamned responsible
look at your kid
talk with your kid

who else is going to give a fuck about other peoples childeren

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Trama

I disagree with that. Armed or not it creates a chance to attack the shooter.
Wasn't that how they stopped Giffords' shooter?

yes, while he was changing magazines, but you're thinking about "shooter" as a criminal exclusively. there are thousands many more home invasions (1 in 5 homes gets it) than gun massacres and you have to consider that "shooters" are much more likely to be law-abiding citizens facing armed criminals.

mira: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBe48u6ERiI
and another
http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2013/...home-invasion/
etc
http://www.click2houston.com/news/Ho...z/-/index.html (this one kinda bungled it but still won)

Originally Posted by Trama

And I'm with you, I'm for individual freedom, but I think in this case (due to the sheer weight of the problem in the US) some compromise has to be made.

i'm for that too but i think this has to be in the form of universal background checks, mental health screenings and mandatory safety training, which are currently inexistent.

Originally Posted by Trama

Of course gun legislation is only part of the problem, and as an outsider I do see that there's a lot noise surrounding this debate, certainly working in the interest of some.

it's a political orgy with little or no chance to benefit the public in any way. same kind of hysteria as "let's invade iraq for 9/11"

Originally Posted by Trama

One curious thing about the media is how you often hear them criticizing the videogame industry, but you never hear a word about Hollywood.

it's a bullshit issue. another red herring that the gun lobby uses to draw attention away from themselves. and while i'm against a good chunk of the proposed restrictions, and against the demonization of weapons, i'm also against this totall bullshit. it's like the twinky defense. i'm telling you-- stupidity, hysteria and nonsense all-around.

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by gast30

now today i heard that most of the shootings in us happens by people under influencial of anti-depresiva

there is a good argument these mass killings are always done by young white men, and many are on meds.


But people are getting insane over this, they're criminalizing childhood - its their last market to exploit


Panicked parents rushed to the two schools on Fulton Avenue and East 174th Street today after heavily armed police were called to respond to reports of a gun on campus. The alarm was caused by a campus aide overhearing a student say “something about a gun.”
The “gun” turned out to be a brightly-colored toy nerf gun that fires harmless foam bullets, and the child in question hadn’t even brought the toy to school.
“The 12-year-old boy told police he was talking to a classmate about his toy Nerf gun, which he left at home,” reports the NY Post, meaning the object that caused the panic was never even on campus.
The two schools were locked down for over an hour with pupils kept inside as police with weapons drawn hunted down the deadly non-existent toy gun.
“It’s nerve racking. There are police officers here with assault rifles and there are helicopters flying around. It’s really scary out here,” said parent Jacklyn Williams.
“Two students from P.S. 171 said they were told to crouch under their desks during the sweep,” reports MyFoxNY.
The lockdown ended at 9:30am.
The boy “could face some kind of discipline from the school” for merely discussing the toy gun with his classmate, reports the NY Daily News.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

aren't there already 1000 laws banning what these gangsters do in the first place?

the law only restrains law-abiding people.

More bullshit. When did an Obamaphile like you join the dimwitted NRA?

You've already argued in favor of 100% background checks with out loopholes and I believe you suggested strengthening punishments for straw purchases, you're contradicting yourself here. Criminals get their guns from the same places law-abiding citizens do, gun retailers and manufactures. Straw purchasing, theft, and out-right corruption are where guns hit the street. When we BAN assault weapons OUTRIGHT, the criminals by default lose access. "Law-abiding people" that is a crock of shit. The fundamental premise of gun-restrictions including background checks is to limit the flow to criminals from legitimate sources. Law-abiding citizens are rightfully restrained because such restraint further limits criminals. After all, what do Americans really want, less crime or simply more opportunities to shoot and harm criminals vindictively? If we want less crime, we need to have less guns, period. Now if folks want to increase "stand-your-ground" and carrying permits well, that is an opposite proposal. That will only increase criminals appetite for destruction, and further arm and tool them for the task.

Law-abiding people who want public safety should make the communal sacrifice of certain aspects of their Second Amendment rights. Universal Second Amendment rights by definition enable criminals. If we honestly want to restrict crime, we need to look in our mirrors in our own homes first. It is an entirely circular argument for a reason, because until we close the loop, guns will continue to cycle around our communities, often times ending up with the very people we all agree shouldn't have them. Its truly all or nothing here, and for the past 9 years we've had nothing.

[!@#$%!]

i said above i'm against obama on this one. he's wasting energy while we are stuck with 8% unemployment and an economy that shrank again due to defense cuts (i'm for defense cuts but they should be replaced by infrastructure builds/repairs/rebuilds). guns weren't a part of his campaign.

gangs get their guns currently at gun shows that require no background check. barring that, they'll go to the black market. i'm for universal background checks, yes. and i'd add mandatory safety training (which isn't in the law i believe). but there's always going to be a black market, like there is for drugs.

[edit: this is much more recent, about straw purchases: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...ngs/?mobile=nc ]

however, i'm against the ar15 and high capacity magazine bans, as i consider them a red herring to get votes from gun-phobic people. also the term "assault weapon" is idiotic. you could call a car an "assault car" if you decide to get drunk and run people over with it. assault hammers!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i said above i'm against obama on this one. he's wasting energy while we are stuck with 8% unemployment and an economy that shrank again due to defense cuts (i'm for defense cuts but they should be replaced by infrastructure builds/repairs/rebuilds). guns weren't a part of his campaign.

gangs get their guns currently at gun shows that require no background check. i'm for universal background checks, yes. and i'd add mandatory safety training (which isn't in the law i believe).

BUT: i'm against the ar15 and high capacity magazine bans, as i consider them a red herring to get votes from gun-phobic people. also the term "assault weapon" is idiotic. you could call a car an "assault car" if you decide to get drunk and run people over with it. assault hammers!

Assault hammers? That is just childish. They are called assault weapons because they were designed by the military for forward military operations, also called an assault. Duh

He is from Chicago, trust me, guns were part of his campaign, just on the down low. Chicago right now is the perfect example of why we need national laws. Chicago's laws are the strictest in the nation, yet gun violence is increasing. Why? Again, because gun laws in neighboring states and even within Illinois itself are lax compared to Chicago's city and county ordinances. Its like the healthcare reform and universal insurance, we either all jump in the pool together and succeed, or we don't all jump in and we all fail together regardless.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Its like the healthcare reform and universal insurance, we either all jump in the pool together and succeed, or we don't all jump in and we all fail together regardless.

right, it's all or nothing-- but because you can't eliminate all guns in america, it's abusive to demand that only certain citizens relinquish their right to self-defense, giving the criminals free rein. so what happens is that states with castle doctrine and more prevailing conceal carry there is less crime.

now look what happened in DC "the murder capital" of the 90s

http://washingtonexaminer.com/d.c.-m...4#.UMoyQW881OL

------

edit:
the gun ban was lifted in 2008. now lawful citizens are allowed to own gun. did the city turn into the wild west? no it didn't. prosecute the criminals not the innocent.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

right, it's all or nothing-- but because you can't eliminate all guns in america, it's abusive to demand that only certain citizens relinquish their right to self-defense, giving the criminals free rein. so what happens is that states with castle doctrine and more prevailing conceal carry there is less crime.

now look what happened in DC "the murder capital" of the 90s

http://washingtonexaminer.com/d.c.-m...4#.UMoyQW881OL

lemme see hold on...

That is ridiculous use of hyperbole, surely you know the situation better than that. Giving criminals a free-reign? Nonsense. No one is talking about relinquishing self defense, but what the fuck do assault style weapons designed by the military? How exactly is that self-defense? I didn't mean to imply ALL GUNS banned or ALL guns allowed, we're talking about the entire nation ALL in on certain restrictions (like 100% background checks and bans on assault-style weapons and munitions). If a few states or cities enact stict legislation that other regions scoff, then the guns from the scoff-laws will trickle down into the communities who are trying to be safer. Interesting that trickle-down theory only seems to work in negative circumstances :/

[!@#$%!]

not hyperbole, i agree with trama that we should reduce the need for guns; however, where criminals can procure guns at will, it's criminal to deny citizens the right to self-defense. sorry, we disagree. no ar-15 or magazine ban for me. the other stuff, okay.

notice the sharp peak of crime drop in DC right after 2008 btw.