[h8kurdt]

Well considering we have USB-c chargers that argument doesn't hold.

The UK is able to do trade deals with other countries but they won't kick in til 2021 I think it is. We had/have free trade deals with God knows how many countries already due to being in the EU. Not sure what better deals we can get out of it.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

Well considering we have USB-c chargers that argument doesn't hold.

my ipad pro cant use other ipad chargers. it’s a special charger with its own weird hole. even current ipads use lightning but the pro has a “special holel haha. do i need to now throw out the chargers with “the wrong hole”?

also the lighting connectors must go, lol.

is usb-c “the final port”?

gotta see possibilities beyond the existing a little bit. that’s.... what innovation does. how do you allow for it? (skip the bullshit with wireless charging lol)

but anyway...

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

The UK is able to do trade deals with other countries but they won't kick in til 2021 I think it is. We had/have free trade deals with God knows how many countries already due to being in the EU. Not sure what better deals we can get out of it.

ah i didnt know this...

thanks! will look for more

[demonrail666]

The free trade argument is for me the weakest in terms of justifying a leave vote. In terms of trade it would certainly be safer to remain as going it alone would obviously represent a massive leap into the unknown. Better the devil you know, and all that. For me it's really about the EU's increasing hostility to democracy.

But this is such a toxic issue in the UK now that I'd rather just agree to disagree with those who see things differently. It fundamentally divides Britain -as we're now seeing from the way it's essentially tearing both major political parties apart (don't believe that the split in Labour is a consequence of the anti-semitism row; it's Brexit) and the same thing is gonna happen to the Conservatives.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

the idea of a no deal happening is just...urgh.

One thing a no deal scenario would surely achieve is that the leave voters would finally stare in the face of the mess they got this country in and its consequences. Some days I support this scenario because I'm not keen on Britain, particularly Wales and England, getting a comfortable outcome out of all this. After all, that would be like breaking up with a bf/gf but wanting to be friends with benefits after. If Theresa May's government really had any integrity Brexit would really mean Brexit, and not all these political games the Tories are playing in order to save face. You voted leave (not you h8kurdt), then leave. See how it feels and the rest will be history.

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

The free trade argument is for me the weakest in terms of justifying a leave vote. In terms of trade it would certainly be safer to remain as going it alone would obviously represent a massive leap into the unknown. Better the devil you know, and all that. For me it's really about the EU's increasing hostility to democracy.

But this is such a toxic issue in the UK now that I'd rather just agree to disagree with those who see things differently. It fundamentally divides Britain -as we're now seeing from the way it's essentially tearing both major political parties apart (don't believe that the split in Labour is a consequence of the anti-semitism row; it's Brexit) and the same thing is gonna happen to the Conservatives.

Nah, I get what you mean. Makes me laugh when people say that if we have another referendum it'll divide people more. How it can be more divided I've not a clue.

Was funny how the news were saying member of Labour were strongly against what Corbyn said about maybe having a 2nd vote. If he'd said no to the idea you can guarantee the news would be saying that certain members of the party are angry and want a 2nd vote. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

One thing a no deal scenario would surely achieve is that the leave voters would finally stare in the face of the mess they got this country in and its consequences. Some days I support this scenario because I'm not keen on Britain, particularly Wales and England, getting a comfortable outcome out of all this. After all, that would be like breaking up with a bf/gf but wanting to be friends with benefits after. If Theresa May's government really had any integrity Brexit would really mean Brexit, and not all these political games the Tories are playing in order to save face. You voted leave (not you h8kurdt), then leave. See how it feels and the rest will be history.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I feel like it sometimes. Problem is that the rest of population have to deal with the fallout of it too.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

Nah, I get what you mean. Makes me laugh when people say that if we have another referendum it'll divide people more. How it can be more divided I've not a clue.

Was funny how the news were saying member of Labour were strongly against what Corbyn said about maybe having a 2nd vote. If he'd said no to the idea you can guarantee the news would be saying that certain members of the party are angry and want a 2nd vote. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Everyone knew Europe would eventually destroy the Tories but the Labour thing was (for me anyway) less obvious. The problem is, while a vast majority of Labour MPs are Remainers, most of its constituencies voted to Leave.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

The free trade argument is for me the weakest in terms of justifying a leave vote. In terms of trade it would certainly be safer to remain as going it alone would obviously represent a massive leap into the unknown. Better the devil you know, and all that. For me it's really about the EU's increasing hostility to democracy.

can you please explain? i mean “the eu’s increasing hostility to democracy” part

e.g., catalonian self-determination? or something in england?

Originally Posted by demonrail666

But this is such a toxic issue in the UK now that I'd rather just agree to disagree with those who see things differently. It fundamentally divides Britain -as we're now seeing from the way it's essentially tearing both major political parties apart (don't believe that the split in Labour is a consequence of the anti-semitism row; it's Brexit) and the same thing is gonna happen to the Conservatives.

well parties always reshuffle and it’s not the end of history. where are the whigs?

definitely from what im reading (the economist is more & more my trusty steed) the split is happening and brexit is the real divide in british politics these days.

thing is the politicians like farage (whom i didnt know, i was in another planet) are presented as charlatans who were just riling up the populace with fictions.

i’m more interested in the why serious grownups would want to leave. which is why i keep interrogating you guys haaa haaa haaaa.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

One thing a no deal scenario would surely achieve is that the leave voters would finally stare in the face of the mess they got this country in and its consequences. Some days I support this scenario because I'm not keen on Britain, particularly Wales and England, getting a comfortable outcome out of all this. After all, that would be like breaking up with a bf/gf but wanting to be friends with benefits after. If Theresa May's government really had any integrity Brexit would really mean Brexit, and not all these political games the Tories are playing in order to save face. You voted leave (not you h8kurdt), then leave. See how it feels and the rest will be history.

is the irish border all there is to it though?

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

like farage.

I wouldn't call Nigel Farage a politician as such. He's an agitator at best. We have our very own version of douchebags like that in Italy right now in our own government with Di Maio and Salvini. Two people who know that pointing their finger at specific targets, be they immigrants, the EU, or anything from outer space, will get them the attention they feel will advance their perceived charisma in the popularity polls. Italy, as you may have previously read, is in recession once more and has the weakest union activity we've seen in decades. I do think the tide will change because eventually all this stuff will need to end because of actual problems that have been avoided one way or another for a long time. And I think, in a way, delivering the no deal, hostile environment Brexit Theresa May really wants could be beneficial for this country because then you have nothing else to blame but your own policies. Nevermind the silly trade deals with Commonwealth countries. The irony is that I feel if the same referendum happened in Italy right now most Italians would vote to leave too. That's how fucked things are at the moment.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

I wouldn't call Nigel Farage a politician as such. He's an agitator at best. We have our very own version of douchebags like that in Italy right now in our own government with Di Maio and Salvini. Two people who know that pointing their finger at specific targets, be they immigrants, the EU, or anything from outer space, will get them the attention they feel will advance their perceived charisma in the popularity polls. Italy, as you may have previously read, is in recession once more and has the weakest union activity we've seen in decades. I do think the tide will change because eventually all this stuff will need to end because of actual problems that have been avoided one way or another for a long time. And I think, in a way, delivering the no deal, hostile environment Brexit Theresa May really wants could be beneficial for this country because then you have nothing else to blame but your own policies. Nevermind the silly trade deals with Commonwealth countries. The irony is that I feel if the same referendum happened in Italy right now most Italians would vote to leave too. That's how fucked things are at the moment.

yeah ive been reading about salvini’s inflammatory squabbles with france, and his impending citizen salary of... 765 or 780 euros or something? maybe it works maybe he’s just buying votes.

in the case of italy seems to me he’d leave so he can manipulate the currency and provide a temporary illusion of prosperity. but the citizen’s income (i forget if this is the right name) would accomplish much the same. maybe.

i don’t know why italy’s economy is in perpetual stagnation though, it has lagged behind the neighbors since i have memory. youth unemployment now is insane.

the thing is if italy crashes the whole eu could maybe fail. no? bigger than greece, ireland, portugal...

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

is the irish border all there is to it though?

I think it depends on which Irish person you ask to. I had an Irish friend round for dinner last week who was very adamant the Brexit vote should be dealt with in a harsh, punitive way for Britain. But I'm sure Irish people have differing opinions on that. The Irish backstop issue is only one of the many issues, as far as I'm concerned.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i’m more interested in the why serious grownups would want to leave.

I'm unarguably grown-up, at least from a biological perspective, but I suppose the serious bit is for others to decide.

Either way, I won't deny that a lot of Leave voters were motivated by simple xenophobia, but others were against the free movement of people and its perceived impact on wages, especially in the unskilled jobs market. Others were against what they saw as the impact of certain regulations dictated by Brussels on small businesses. Others saw it as the right for Britain to create and implement its own laws. Others wanted to revive trade options with the commonwealth and other parts of the world.

For me it was mainly the fact that its inner circle appear to exist outside of any genuine election-process involving the people of Europe (and consequently not really accountable to them). Also the way that it uses austerity to exert control over its member states (most obviously in the case of Greece). Plus they keep fucking around with the shape of bananas.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I'm unarguably grown-up, at least from a biological perspective, but I suppose the serious bit is for others to decide.

Either way, I won't deny that a lot of Leave voters were motivated by simple xenophobia, but others were against the free movement of people and its perceived impact on wages, especially in the unskilled jobs market. Others were against what they saw as the impact of certain regulations dictated by Brussels on small businesses. Others saw it as the right for Britain to create and implement its own laws. Others wanted to revive trade options with the commonwealth and other parts of the world.

For me it was mainly the fact that its inner circle appear to exist outside of any genuine election-process involving the people of Europe (and consequently not really accountable to them). Also the way that it uses austerity to exert control over its member states (most obviously in the case of Greece). Plus they keep fucking around with the shape of bananas.

Aren't you some Irish-Egyptian born in England? Not even pure. lol

[Genteel Death]

Kidding, of course. x

[demonrail666]

Spot-On. I can cook cabbage a million ways, I'm brilliant at backgammon and I never tip.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Spot-On. I can cook cabbage a million ways, I'm brilliant at backgammon and I never tip.

Are you part of any union?

[demonrail666]

Unison. Why?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I'm unarguably grown-up, at least from a biological perspective, but I suppose the serious bit is for others to decide.

Either way, I won't deny that a lot of Leave voters were motivated by simple xenophobia, but others were against the free movement of people and its perceived impact on wages, especially in the unskilled jobs market. Others were against what they saw as the impact of certain regulations dictated by Brussels on small businesses. Others saw it as the right for Britain to create and implement its own laws. Others wanted to revive trade options with the commonwealth and other parts of the world.

For me it was mainly the fact that its inner circle appear to exist outside of any genuine election-process involving the people of Europe (and consequently not really accountable to them). Also the way that it uses austerity to exert control over its member states (most obviously in the case of Greece). Plus they keep fucking around with the shape of bananas.

yyyeah i begin to see

seems to me the eu was above all a peace project. enough with the wars. which sure a lofty goal—essential, even.

however, turning nation states into eventual members of a confederacy can’t be easy... here we have 50 states now but took a civil war and some massive brutality and the war still continues between north and south. kinda like in scotland...

now the common maket is “free” for members but not that free really as a market. meaning, i realize now—you can freely trade with each other but at bottom there”s a lot of central planning and regulation. like the usb cable—or bananas?

i have no doubt that these people have good intentions, but good intentions often have unintended consequences.

sssssso... i can see a country with a more market oriented tradition like england getting fed up in part with the central planning.

which to me was maybe the wrong play—the right play would have been to exert influence to liberalize the whole market. and thus you’d get whichever banana was the best offer on that day, and new connectors, and less bureaucracy and more innovations. maybe.

but itks hard to move a 20 or 21 nation bloc so i can see why it could get sisiphean (how do you spell that).

the austerity business was brutal. and i think prolonged the problems?

latin america was often like that in the grip of the imf. the foreign debts were orders of magnitude bigger than the economy itself.

some like argentina declared their independence, refused to pay, and ended in the shit.

others renegotiated, opened up their markets, freed up productivity, and are doing great, the debt is there but no longer a problem.

seems to me the eu did not give greece and lot of options yeah...

SO, since you mention the commonwealth, independent trade deals were not allowed, then?

i can see how it began to chafe...

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Aren't you some Irish-Egyptian born in England? Not even pure. lol

lmfao

[demonrail666]

The one thing I do have trouble with as a Leave voter who sees my opposition to the EU in 'Leftist' terms is that my vote has undoubtedly benefitted the Right more than it has the Left, although I think this is largely down to prominent Euro-sceptic figures on the Left (like Corbyn) shying away from the debate in the build-up to the referendum, essentially handing the Brexit campaign to figures like Farage and Boris Johnson.

But I still stand by my decision and only wish arguments like the one made below had been more widely published

https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/1...a-real-brexit/