[sonicl]

I see that English fans are once again under attack for their behaviour in Athens, after the stadium authorities closed the gates and refused entry to any Liverpool fans who weren't already inside because their part of the stadium stadium was full. Countless people seem to be blaming UEFA for the situation, but are ignoring the fact that the situation wouldn't have arisen if Liverpool fans hadn't travelled to Athens without tickets on the basis that "we'll get in somehow" and entered the ground with forged tickets (and let's face it, they will have known that they were probably forged) or no tickets at all. For some reason the media spent yesterday looking upon the fact that there were 40 or 50 thousand Liverpool fans in Athens for the match when there weren't that many tickets available to the club as being something praiseworthy - "loyal supporters". Even the club was telling people not travel without tickets on the one hand, while praising the fact that 40,000 fans in Athens showed what great fans they have on the other. Liverpool FC are alweays keen to remind the world of Hillsborough when it suits them, but it's ridiculous how easily they forget the lessons of that tragedy at other times.

[Iain]

Yeah, the amount of people that travelled without tickets was pretty pathetic. Silly behaviour.

Or Brussels , for that matter. Seems like tragedies are remembered only when it suits certain people, innit?

[sonicl]

I'm not going to pretend that Liverpool fans are the only ones who travel without tickets, but they do have this mentality that it is some sort of a birthright to be able to get into football grounds to see their team. They look upon being a "scally" as an honourable thing - this is what being a real Scouser is all about. But when things go wrong it's always someone else's fault. It's that mentality that makes me so anti-Liverpool FC.

[sonicl]

So you're not denying that you appeared on TV in a leather catsuit, Nefeli?

[HECKLER SPRAY]

Well done, Milan... I'm disappointed, the Reds had not the luck for them, they had real good chance to equalize, but they failed.
I remind Milan was not sure to play the Champion's League at the beginning of the season (brebery...), and that makes me feel they don't merit this cup.
But, it's Football, so, well... congratulations, Milan.

[sonicl]

I'll just add to my earlier post that the British mentality where alcohol is concerned doesn't help, but it is a mentality that is well known and the authorities in cities that are visited by British teasm should do more to counter that.

I went to a Chelsea match in Northern Spain about twelve years ago. Six thousand Chelsea fans flew over and were taken to the city centre by bus. They were then left in a square that had no shelter from the sun and nothing but bars. There weren't even any restaurants. Anyone trying to leave the square was prevented from doing so by riot police. Six thousand Chelsea fans were left with nothing to do all day but sit in the sun and drink Spanish beer. Not surprisingly, there was trouble at the match.

A few years later, I went to a match in Stockholm. We were allowed to wander anywhere we wanted, the police were super-friendly, we were treated like human beings. People didn't drink so much - the evening passed off totally without trouble.

[HECKLER SPRAY]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

i do have a catsuit (if its called that way, thing i got) now that you mention this. but its not leather.

Post a picture, please !!! We want to see that !!

[sonicl]

Sorry, I'm waffling. I'm trying to make some point about the mentality of the British abroad and the expectation that it leads to from the cities that are unfortunate enough to play host to them.

Yeah, but why should the english football fans be treated differently from the other football fans? It's only them who normally cause mayhem abroad, aren't they? If other football fans find themselves something to entertain themselves with that isn't alcohol and violence, why can that not apply to them too?

[HECKLER SPRAY]

Originally Posted by sonicl

Sorry, I'm waffling. I'm trying to make some point about the mentality of the British abroad and the expectation that it leads to from the cities that are unfortunate enough to play host to them.

It's not waffling, man, it fits with that thread.

[sonicl]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

Yeah, but why should the english football fans be treated differently from the other football fans? It's only them who normally cause mayhem abroad, aren't they? If other football fans find themselves something to entertain themselves that isn't alcohol and violence, why can that not apply to them too?

I don't know. It's a part of the British mentality that I don't understand, but it's also something that leads me to try to look as un-British as possible whenever I travel outside of these shores. I don't want to be associated with the idiot fraternity.

I'm not saying that italian football fans are that much better either. For as long as they stab each other at home and don't go ruining shops, historical monuments or attack people abroad, I don't care if they riot amongst themselves. And the violence can be just as bad as the english's, when it happens.

[Pookie]

Damn, I missed the vote.

[nick2767]

Sonicl, if Chelsea or Man U had got through to the final thousands of their fans would have travelled to Athens in the hope of picking up a ticket. I recall a similar number of MU fans travelled to the final in Barcelona. English and England fans have a long history of travelling abroad in big numbers, it's part of our footballing culture. Uefa and the ground's authorities should have realised this and be better prepared to cope with the influx. Apparently, there were no turnstiles and fans were being waved into the ground without tickets being checked. The fact each club only had 17000 tickets leaving an incredible 29000 to corporates and the so called 'uefa family' meant that a good proportion would be available on the black market. The authorities should have known that forgeries would also be in circulation because, again, this is not unusual at big sporting events. It seems a lot of people with legitimate tickets were turned back last night which caused some of the problems with police.

There were too few tickets available, the ground wasn't designed for football and the authorities were badly prepared for the numbers of fans prepared to travel.

I'm not excusing the behaviour of the minority of Liverpool fans last night btw. Turning up to the ground without tickets, buying recognisablly fake tickets and trying to force their way was dangerous and inexcusable. It meant that many of their fellow supporters with legitimate tickets didn't get to the see the game. But, I think it's another case of poor crowd management at a european ground (of which we've seen many examples this year) and the self-indulgent, cronism of uefa that's at cause.

Mind you it was a pretty poor match.

[sonicl]

I agree with everything that you say, nick2767. When Chelsea reached the semi-final, friends of mine were trying to persuade me that if we got to the final, I should go to Athens with them and try to get a ticket out there. I joked with Fishmonkey that if it was a CFC v ManU final we'd go out to Athens to watch the game in a bar.

The distribution of tickets to major finals is a fiasco, especially in the way that so many tickets go to uninterested parties in the name of corporate entertainment, but that doesn't make the fact that people dealt with that by forcing their way into a place where they had no right to be in any way excuseable.

The head of UEFA is a twat, by the way, and that is proven by the fact that he tried to counter Michael Howards observations on what happened last night with the comment that the opinion of a man who introduced the Poll Tax isn't to be taken seriously.

[nick2767]

It's William Galliard, he's sometihng like the Head of Communications. I heard his comments this morning. Prat. Uefa are very good at placing blame elsewhere and not any taking responsibility.


Sadly, my team doesn't have a cat in hell's chance of ever getting into europe. We don't even have our own ground. That'll give you a clue to whom I support!

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by nicfit

ok, but he gained the fault that made milan score the first goal and made the assist for the second goal, looks like a more than decent outcome for a final where he was obviously one of the more -"controlled"- players by the other team, no? btw, I'm still sorry for the reds, but I'm kinda happy for milan actually.

Indeed, To quote a classic Cliche - Its the mark of great players when they can be invisible for 89 minutes and come up with the goods at the vital moment. But the fact Liverpool controlled him meant they should have taken advantage. If they had a Ronaldo or indeed a Kaka im sure they would have had more clear cut chances when they dominated. I guess thats what theyll be looking to buy in the window, they could have used a real quality attacking midfielder who could beat a man and make a killer pass.

[the ikara cult]

on the crowd trouble stuff, ive never been to a match where its been an issue, i dont get to see many games anyway, but nice to hear some of yr anecdotes Sonicl, interesting how those trips abroad differed.

On the English fans thing, i can only go on what ive read and seen but recently with Man U and Spurs in Seville one of the issues has been the police. I heard on the radio last night that there was a massively disproportionate number of police at the game last night, and they prevented a load of fans who had real tickets in because the stadium was full - this with a load of Liverpool fans stuck at John Lennon airport, so there was clearly lax ticket inspection for forgeries.

And interesting point someone made on the radio last night is that people will always GO even if they dont get in cos its like a secular pilgramage, and they were saying how in Germany last year (i think) they just accepted it and catered for those who couldnt get in to games by having big screens etc. apparently last night there was a big screen showing that was called off - thats only going to fuel peoples frustration. Besides, if you capitalise on all those people who are going to come without tickets and dont get in think how much cash you could make from beer/screenings etc? It could be like a festival.