[Severian]

We just finished the second season on Netflix. Took it slow this time. I think I prefer it to the first.

I'm a pretty harsh critic of Daredevil because he's one of the few Marvel characters I really dig. So there are always going to be some things I don't like, even in the best adaptation. And I believe this is probably the best adaptation anyone could have expected.

Anyone have thoughts? I kind of want to test the waters a bit before I start pointing out all the things I liked and disliked. If there's no interest, then fuck it.

[Antagon]

Hell yeah. Daredevil and Jessica Jones are probably the best things Marvel Studios released in the last few years. I personally enjoyed the first season a bit more though. I thought it was tighter and had a great villain in Kingpin. They really did a great job at portraying him as this untouchable character, which made for some interesting hardships and obstacles for the protagonists to overcome. I kind of missed that a bit in the second season. I liked that it went further into some of the themes that involved internal conflict though.

True, the whole introduction of Stick and the foreshadowing of Black Sky kind of clashed with the pacing/main plot of the first season, but once it fully committed to the "Exposing Kingpin" theme again, it regained its focus and turned progressively intense. I was a bit less emotionally invested in the final act of season 2 and I wasn't too fond of the one-track plot of the first three episodes. Still a very solid season though that had its fair share of standout moments. These are just some minor personal gripes. Count me in for season 3.

I still find it hard to buy that this is supposed to take place in the same universe as the Avengers. It's just such a huge tonal departure from the happy-go-lucky, damn the consequences big screen adaptations.

[Severian]

Yes, that's because Daredevil is basically red Batman. Always has been, always will be. One of Marvel's many attempts to cash in on Batman's success, but I think Daredevil has, over time, really developed into its own entity. A better riff on Batman than even DC could manage (with, say, Green Arrow).

I was really quite pleasantly surprised by Punisher. Never been much of a fan of the character, but I was on board for this big time.

And Elektra was, despite Frank Miller's failure to give his blessing, MUCH better... INFINITELY better than the film version. I liked the casting choice and the way the character was portrayed felt more true to the original idea.

Now, obviously Bull's Eye is going to need to make an appearance in season 3. That will be a challenge.

[Severian]

I liked Kingpin a LOT the first time through season 1. I thought he kind of stole the show. I think I even described his vincent d'onofrio's portrayal of Wilson Fisk as "Heath Ledger Joker-quality." But it's not even close.

My second time through season 1 I saw the cracks in his performance. He's playing Kingpin as a spoiled baby, and it deflates the character of menace eventually. I still think he's done well in the grand scheme of things, but he's no Ledger. He's no Liam Neeson (as Ras Al-Ghul), or Tom Hardy (Bane). He's not even at the level of Nicholson's Joker. But he's still better than most villains you encounter in these things.

I also didn't like Nobu. His character, the acting, the delivery ... it was all quite awful really. Reminded me of '80s Van Damme movies and their evil Korean/Chinese karate terrorists.

The backbone of the show is in the direction, cinematography and perhaps most of all, the choreography. They are doing for the continuous shot that top Scorcese's famous single shot sequence in Goodfellas. That one-shot fight scene in the staircase? It was like that hallway scene from Season 1 episode 2, only, like, squared. Made that amazing scene look almost quaint by comparison.

There's some bad acting on the show. I hate Karen. Charlie Cox is a good dramatic actor, but not a great comedic one, and he feels out of place in the lighter moments.

Berenthal was excellent as Frank Castle though. And those first two episodes, where he rained hell on every gangster in the city, Terminator style, were awesome.

[Antagon]

I thought it was kind of the point to portray him that way. He was a different kind of villain in this iteration. One that was both sympathetic in some way, but also an unstable and insecure tyrant. I was put off by some of the petty things he did at first, but then I realised that this was fully intentional and started to appreciate it for what it was. Kingpin is akin to a violent version of many a wealthy politician or business tycoon. Trying to emit an air of sophistication, but ultimately coming off like a spoiled child. Can't say this theme doesn't seem familiar. I have to agree on Nobu though. He didn't do much for me either. And the whole thing about "The Hand" for that matter - it's the reason why I wasn't really emotionally invested in the finale of season 2. The Hand just seemed like another quest for our hero to partake in. There was hardly any oomph or interesting conflict behind it.

As for the acting: I can see why some people are put off by Deborah Ann Woll's acting. Personally, I didn't mind her at all though. And I might be in the minority there, but I really liked Elden Henson as Foggy Nelson. Vondie-Curtis Hall was spot-on as Ben Urich. Charlie Cox didn't have that many lighter moments if I remember correctly.

I'm kind of on the fence about the Punisher. I thought he had some legitimately great moments. But at the same time, the way he was depicted made him seem like a rambling knucklehead at certain points. I get that it was intended to portray him as your typical tough guy/badass with a soft core, but I thought he seemed kind of inconsistent and sometimes downright psychotic. And wasn't it their intention to show that he is not in fact psychotic? That he does his killings by his own will, as harsh as that truth may be? He was incredibly likeable during the graveyard scene and some other moments as well though.

I agree on the direction, cinematography and the choreography. There was one episode in season 1 (I think it was episode 6 or 7) that even made me look up the cinematographer. The fights are well-choreographed and competently directed. The hallway and staircase scenes being standouts of course, the Yakatomi Building fight (nice nod to Die Hard there) being an honorable mention.

[Severian]

How do you rank it compared to Jessica Jones?

I'm a bigger fan of Daredevil in general, and I'm almost completely unfamiliar with Jessica Jones and ATLAS investigations but I thought the show was almost as good if not better in some ways than Daredevil. Mostly because of the wonderful David Tennant playing Kilgrave/The Purple Man. He owned that role.

[Rob Instigator]

I dug the first season, even though it had some plodding bits, and I wished they would hurry up already and give him his red outfit....and I thought Dinofrio was awesome as Kingpin

I REALLY dug the second season, as the fight scenes kept being very intense and the Daredevil we all know and love is finally coming to the forefront. The actor who plays Karen Paige is the only severely weak link on this show. She was brutal to watch in True Blood and she is passably better in daredevil. She is hired because she plays the weepy girl OK, and that is all she does. get quiet, and weep..... BORING.

The Punisher was cool, and the guy playing him did a great job, but I do not understand why they removed Frank Castle's policeman background...tightening the story I guess.

Things I do not like about the Daredevil.

It is getting harder and harder to hide the main actor's toupee in low light and shadow. Horrible. Bad enough that they make Matt Murdock a brunette, but one that is obviously 5'3" tall? That shit irritates me every time he is on screen. His comb-forward/toupee is fucking BRUTAL.

For someone who is supposed to be dedicated to fighting crime, especially low-level crime, in hells kitchen, we have so far rarely seen Daredevil actually patrolling and fighting crime.

On a side note to that, to me the best parts of comic book daredevil are when he flies through the air and rooftops like a non-powered SpiderMan, and it took 22 episodes for Daredevil to get his billyclub and swing through the air? Shitty.

Luckily (spoilers ahead) us comic book readers know that Karen Paige dies, and so we will be liberated from her HORRIFIC HAM acting.

[Rob Instigator]

Jessica Jones was good, better than the original Alias comic in ways. It was not as much FUN as Daredevil can be.

For me, even with all it's flaws, GOTHAM is the most fun comic book show out there. I love it's insanities.

[Rob Instigator]

I also do not understand why sometimes the actor playing Karen Paige has her big-ass face mole covered in flesh tone, and other times it is out there for full view. Just leave the girl's mole alone!

[Antagon]

You know, I'm almost compelled to say that Jessica Jones Season 1 was indeed a tad better. It was tightly scripted, had an extremely likeable and nuanced protagonist and was probably a bit more consistent than both of Daredevil's seasons. You can tell David Tennant had a blast playing the villain. He was great. And the chemistry between Jessica and Luke Cage seemed very natural and effortless. I usually don't like romance subplots in comic adaptations, but those two worked really well together. Overall, the series featured many characters that had great chemistry with each other. The only one that really stood out like a sore thumb to me was Officer Simpson. He was just such a moron and an irritating character. And one clear edge Daredevil has over Jessica Jones is the fight choreography (and cinematography). It got increasingly better as the season progressed, but the bar fight between Luke Cage, Jessica and those Rugby goons just seemed lazy. But that's okay, JJ is more of a character-driven Mystery-Drama, action is not its main selling point, so there's no real point in complaining. I liked it a lot overall.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Jessica Jones was good, better than the original Alias comic in ways. It was not as much FUN as Daredevil can be.

For me, even with all it's flaws, GOTHAM is the most fun comic book show out there. I love it's insanities.

I thought JJ was more "fun" and quite a bit funnier than Daredevil, thanks to that lead actress's excellent, perfectly flippant facial expressions and attitude. But it didn't get the old blood pumping like some of those Daredevil fight scenes did.

I love GOTHAM too. It's campy as hell, but it's not trying to hide that fact, and it's like an extension of Tim Burton's vision of Gotham in so many ways. It's fun even though some of the violence is borderline pornographic and some of the acting is downright terrible.

Unlike Green Arrow and Flash, GOTHAM balances camp and cool very well, and doesn't get bogged down by its serious moments (Arrow's serious moments are starting to make me want to claw my eyes out.)

Also I've always liked that Ben Mackenzie guy. Don't ask me why. Just do. Not ashamed. He's cool. Seems like a nice chap. I'd like to have a beer with him.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I dug the first season, even though it had some plodding bits, and I wished they would hurry up already and give him his red outfit....and I thought Dinofrio was awesome as Kingpin

I REALLY dug the second season, as the fight scenes kept being very intense and the Daredevil we all know and love is finally coming to the forefront. The actor who plays Karen Paige is the only severely weak link on this show. She was brutal to watch in True Blood and she is passably better in daredevil. She is hired because she plays the weepy girl OK, and that is all she does. get quiet, and weep..... BORING.

The Punisher was cool, and the guy playing him did a great job, but I do not understand why they removed Frank Castle's policeman background...tightening the story I guess.

Things I do not like about the Daredevil.

It is getting harder and harder to hide the main actor's toupee in low light and shadow. Horrible. Bad enough that they make Matt Murdock a brunette, but one that is obviously 5'3" tall? That shit irritates me every time he is on screen. His comb-forward/toupee is fucking BRUTAL.

For someone who is supposed to be dedicated to fighting crime, especially low-level crime, in hells kitchen, we have so far rarely seen Daredevil actually patrolling and fighting crime.

On a side note to that, to me the best parts of comic book daredevil are when he flies through the air and rooftops like a non-powered SpiderMan, and it took 22 episodes for Daredevil to get his billyclub and swing through the air? Shitty.

Luckily (spoilers ahead) us comic book readers know that Karen Paige dies, and so we will be liberated from her HORRIFIC HAM acting.

Wait, Charlie Cox wears a toupee? Like... for baldness? For height? I didn't notice.

And yeah, can't wait for Karen to die. I'm not sure she will, because they're not completely sticking to source material with regard to her character, but I'm totally down for that to happen.

They need to bring in someone really good to be Bull's eye. And they're going to need to make over the character quite a bit. But I'm looking forward to seeing how they handle that, because Bull's eye done right can be pretty badass. Even though we ALL know he's a Deadshot ripoff, plain and simple.

Whatever. Comic books! Yeah!

[Rob Instigator]

you did not notice because the lighting guys frame his head to hide the toupee.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

you did not notice because the lighting guys frame his head to hide the toupee.

But is he bald? Or just short?

I mean, he's obviously short. Like, Tom Cruise short. But a lot of super athletic dudes are, and he's a super fucking athletic dude. He has a gymnast's build. I actually think it works pretty well for Daredevil, especially since -- because they're using Born Again as a reference point -- they obviously try to translate some of Frank Miller and John Romita Jr.'s artistic "big fist/big feet" characteristics into the show. Especially in season 1, when he was wearing the black and wrapping his fists and clodding around in doc Martins.

That would look weird on a tall guy. Imagine Dennis Leary trying to pull that off. Goodbye graceful movements.

Also, Matt Murdoch has never been drawn as a dude with a particularly imposing frame. He's not like Bruce Wayne for instance, who is known for his massive frame even when he's not Batman. In the comics at least.

[Severian]

BTW: have you ever read the Marvel Legends installment titled "Daredevil: Yellow" by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale?

One of my favorites. Also one of my favorite comic book writer/artist teams. Batman: The Long Halloween might be my favorite arc of all time. Not to mention Dark Victory and Superman for all Seasons.

Loeb and Sale kick ass.